


FIFTH SESSION / 





THIRD - EIGHTH 
SITTINGS		:	NORMAL	:	20 JULY, 13 AUGUST, 30 SEPTMBER, 6 OCTOBER, 10 NOVEMBER & 2 DECEMBER 1998
								




	VOLUME 8 / 
	1998







SPINE:	VOLUME 8 1998












HANS\COV898
	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	THIRD SITTING - FIRST SITTING DAY
	MONDAY, 20 JULY 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 14:36 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, before you proceed with this item or any other item, I wish to draw to your attention that the Rules of this House, Rule 80, indicates that the order of business of the House is done by the Chief Whip of the majority party in agreement with the representatives of other parties.  I draw to your attention that as far as I am aware, the Order Paper before us has not been drafted in accordance with this Rule.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, the National Party does concur with that sentiment in that we did ask for a certain item to be placed upon the Order Paper today, and that was before you, sir, and we received a letter where you had agreed that this be before the House, and that concerned a resolution or a motion we first wish to put forward.  Again the Whips have not agreed to the Orders on the Order Paper and we just wish to note that as well, that there has been no agreement on the matters before the House today.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I think just for the sake of completeness, the ANC has certainly not been consulted on the drafting of the Order Paper.

THE SPEAKER:  I have therefore before me an Order Paper which has not been drawn up in terms of the Rules.  Mr Chief Whip, please?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, what is in front of the House is the second Order Paper which was prepared today.  This Order Paper which we have in front of us here was erroneously distributed.  There should in fact be another Order Paper, which I hope will be distributed soon, because that was prepared this morning with an Item 8.2, which does in fact include the proposal by the National Party.  I would request, Mr Speaker, because the Order Paper with the item mentioned by Mr Edwards, I assume it will be Item 8.2, that we continue with this Order Paper as it is until the correct one is tabled, which I think will be done in a few minutes.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Can I hear from Mr Burrows, then Mr Edwards, in the light of what the Chief Whip has said what we must proceed to do.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I am in agreement with the Chief Whip of the majority party that we proceed to Item 8.1 on the understanding that Item 8.1 will not be concluded, neither will the House adjourn until such time as the next Order Paper, or the correct Order Paper has been distributed.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  Yes, Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, yes, we agree with that procedure that until we have agreed on the final Order Paper, that the business of the House not be concluded today.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Meer?

MR I C MEER:  Mr Speaker, what is important for us to realise, is that what has happened should not ever happen again.  Therefore it is imperative that before the documents are distributed for the attention of members, they should be submitted to the Chief Whip of the majority party, who will then satisfy himself that what has been placed before us, is in fact in keeping with the Rules, otherwise there is no point in having Rules.  Technically, there is no Order Paper before this House at present.  But I agree that we must not waste time, and we must continue with the work.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Meer.  In the light of the agreement that has just come forward, we will proceed with the Order Paper.  Yes, Mr Chief Whip?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the Order Paper is being distributed right now.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, in that event, can we proceed until we get to that point where the dispute about the Order Paper in question comes in.  I will therefore proceed accordingly, whilst the Order Paper with the amendments is being distributed.

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

THE SPEAKER:  I wish to report to the House on the passing away of the hon member Mr S B Mthembu.  It is with profound regret that I have to announce the untimely passing away of the hon member Mr S B Mthembu.  From the reports received, he was shot dead at Gingindlovu on Wednesday the 15th of July.  Unfortunately, explanatory details including the motive for this senseless slaying of our colleague, is not yet available.  The Legislature condemns in the extreme an attack of this nature on one of its hon members and appeals to anyone with information to come forward and assist the police with the investigation.  I appeal in this dark hour to all members of the public to remember Mr Mthembu and his family in their thoughts and in their prayers.  Let us pledge our sincere support to the bereaved in whatever manner we can.

May I also point out that the memorial service will be held at the Gingindlovu Community Hall tomorrow at 10.00 am.  The funeral service will be held on Saturday the 25th of July 1998 at 9.00 am.  The venue will be the Civic Centre in Empangeni.  The burial will take place at Empangeni Cemetery in the afternoon of that day.

I have before me here an expression of condolences from Khoabane Oupa Executive Secretary to the Miss hon Speaker, the Speaker of the Free State.  Mr Joe Mafereka, his assistant instructed me to convey his heart-felt condolences for the loss of one of our members, Mr Bheki Mthembu.  The Speaker of the Free State wishes us the best out of this unhappy situation.

Having said that, I wish to announce that I will attend this memorial service to be held at Gingindlovu at 10:00 tomorrow.  I request the House to rise in memory of this our member.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS STAND

THE SPEAKER:  May his soul rest in peace.  Amen.

THE PREMIER:  May I also join you and our colleagues in this House, in stating that I was utterly shocked to hear of the sudden and unexpected death of our colleague in the Provincial Legislature, Mr Bheki Mthembu, MPP.

The tragic killing of a member of the Provincial Legislature is an attack on the multi-party democracy in KwaZulu-Natal which we hold so dear.  Political intolerance is a cancer that must be rooted out of our society if we are to fulfil the enormous potential this Province has.  We call on the police to leave no stone unturned in apprehending his killers and bringing them before the Courts.  A clear message needs to be sent to those enemies of democracy, that the killing of an elected public representative strikes at the very heart of our Parliamentary Institution, and will not be tolerated.  I cannot emphasise strongly enough my revulsion at this kind of behaviour and note that he is the first member of Parliament to be killed in our Province.

I believe that I speak on behalf of all the members of this Legislature when I convey our deepest sympathy to the family of the late Mr Mthembu.  We all knew him as a cheerful and enthusiastic member of this House.  We knew him for his constructive involvement in solving problems and serving the people of our Province.  His contribution will be sorely missed.

I have asked the Leader of the House, Mr M B Gwala, to lead a delegation to represent this House at his funeral and convey these sentiments to his family.  I have requested the Reverend C J Mtetwa to personally represent me as Premier, because, unfortunately I have an engagement I cannot shift.  Minister Valli Moosa is coming to ~Ulundi~ to discuss with the Cabinet issues relating to his Portfolio, and this meeting will start at about half past nine and finish at 16:00, so it is impossible for me to abandon that meeting.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  We will proceed.  Yes, Mr Schutte?

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the National Party, we would also like to accord our abhorrence with the deed which has caused the death of our colleague.  We join this House in expressing our sympathy and condolences with the family and also with the ANC.

The Gingindlovu incident constitutes, we believe, a grievous loss to our Province and indeed irreparable loss to the cause of peace and reconciliation in this Province and our country.  The National Party will be represented at the memorial service by Mr S V Naicker.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Schutte.  Yes, Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, the Democratic Party would join you, the Premier and all other colleagues, in expressing their condolences to the family, to the colleagues and to the friends of our late friend and colleague.

The murder of a public representative is more than the murder of any other person.  It is, and represents to strike at the very cord and heart of democracy.  Where the rights guaranteed to public representatives to stand and represent the people, to be outspoken, to stand up and be counted, are the very things that we, in this House, each one of us, represent.  Our colleague has lost his life in the service of his Province, of his country and of his voters.  We will remember him.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  Yes, Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, we concur with the sentiments expressed.  We are very deeply shocked at this cowardly act, when a member of the Legislature is taken away from us by such a horrible deed.  The Minority Front also mourns this loss.  I think the whole Province and the whole country mourns this loss very dearly and very deeply.  We will be represented at the memorial service.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Yes, Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker often people say akwehlanga lungehlanga,
but what has happened has never happened in this Province, that we lose a member of Parliament and his chair remains empty over there because he was killed by thugs.  

Mr Speaker we in the PAC are saying the National Government and the Provincial Government should stand up and see what is being done about this incident of death because no one is safe not even us.  We wish that his family and the ANC be comforted and accept what has happened although it is painful.  We will be present at the memorial service.  Thank you.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mrs Downs.

MRS J M DOWNS:  The ACDP would like to join with all of our colleagues in expressing our shock and horror and our deep sadness at the loss of one of our members, it is unspeakable.  We would just like to join in condemning in the roundest, strongest, possible terms, these acts which can take so violently someone who was a part of us in this House.  On a personal level, I knew him as a very cheerful and friendly person and he is going to be very sadly missed, on a level with the ANC as well.  To all of his colleagues there, we are very sorry for your loss.  It cannot be an easy thing.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Minister?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  I also want to join in, on behalf of the ANC, to express our shock at the assassination of the member of this House, Mr Bheki Mthembu.  Also to thank all the parties in this House for the messages that were received. The Premier was one of the people who called very early to express his condolences, and the other parties, we appreciate that very much.  He is the first representative, member of a Provincial Legislature and of a National Parliament, as far as we know, certainly since 1994, to be assassinated.  The assassination of Public Representatives can never be allowed to be a norm in this country and it is roundly condemned by all of us.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister. 

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

None.

THE SPEAKER:  We come to Item No 4 on the Order Paper.

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

Notice to all members and alternates of the Provincial NCOP Committee.  Please note that a meeting of the NCOP Committee will be held after the Parliamentary sitting in the NCOP Board Room, the Stock Exchange Building, that is after our meeting.  Those who are concerned, please take note of that.

I will therefore proceed to No 5.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would also like to inform the House that Mrs Mkhize lost her son.  He was buried on Saturday.  Mr Romalall's brother was killed in Clermont while he was about their business.  I think they were involved in construction and so on.  Mr David Ntombela also lost his brother. This is the terrible story about our Province, where violence is just raging on and on.

I would like to congratulate the new leader of the African National Congress in the Province, the Minister of Transport, Mr J S Ndebele.  I have of course warned him that the leader he is succeeding, we managed to differ and disagree without being disagreeable.  I hope that that will be the pattern of the relationship.  While welcoming him and congratulating him, I would like to remind him of the huge burden that rests on him, on my shoulders and on every political party's shoulders in this House, to find common purpose and common objectives, to stamp out this violence, to make the communities themselves act against crime and to protect, by timeously informing Safety and Security Services people.

But above everything, to join together in promoting economic growth and job creation in this Province because the down side of the violence and the crime is poverty.  We must join hands, all of us, in fighting that poverty.  Those are the announcements I wanted to make.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Premier.  Might I add that when I walked into the Chamber, I saw Dr Zweli on the other side and I thought he had joined the IFP.  To my surprise, he has changed his mind.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

AN HON MEMBER:  He left in a fit of pique.  [LAUGHTER]

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  He is sitting on that side, but next year we will all be there.  [LAUGHTER]

THE PREMIER:  We are all free to dream.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  We will proceed therefore.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Minister of Transport?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  I wish to move a motion in terms of Rule 104 about the previous subject.

	Noting

	*	the brutal assassination of our colleague, leader, activist and friend, the hon Mr Bheki Mthembu;  

	*	the loss of a loving father and husband, brutally gunned down after addressing the Municipality of Gingindlovu TLC; and  

	*	the increasing number of assassinations and deaths of public representatives, community leaders and citizens in KwaZulu-Natal.

	This House resolves:

	*	to send its condolences to the family and relatives of the late Mr Bheki Mthembu;

	*	to request the Executive Board to identify a specific way in which this Legislature remembers his valuable contribution to public life; and 

	*	to request the SAPS to provide the Legislature with a full progress report on their investigations to date and that they leave no stone unturned in finding the perpetrators of this heinous crime. 

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  There is a motion before the House.  Yes, Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  We support the motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Oh, you support the motion.  Yes, Mr Chief Whip?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the IFP support this motion without any reservation.  We would also pledge that through the mechanisms mentioned in this motion, we will do our best to try and give effect to the motion, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, the National Party supports the motion.  We did move a small amendment which thankfully the ANC did incorporate and that was to express the deepest sympathy to all those bereaved, and we thank them for that.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, the Democratic Party will support the motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, the PAC will support the motion without any reservations.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, the ACDP support the motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  This is an unopposed motion.  All parties agree.  I put the Motion.

THE MOTION AS MOVED BY MR J S NDEBELE - PASSED

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I will move as follows:

	This House noting:

	1.	the gruesome murder of defenceless people including innocent women and children in Richmond;

	2.	that the present security arrangement is inadequate or incapable of ensuring the safety of the people in Richmond as evidenced by the lack of arrest after death and notwithstanding the heavy police and army presence in the area; and

	3.	terrorism in this area is perpetrated by the alliance between Third Force elements and the warlords associated with a certain political party.

		Hereby resolves: 

	1.	that this House mobilises the Cabinet Peace Committee and a properly constituted Safety and Security Portfolio Committee of this Legislature to deal with the Richmond matter;

	2.	that this House ensures that proper investigation into the killings are carried out and that those members of the South African Police Services involved or suspected to be involved in the Richmond saga be excluded; and

	3.	that phycological counselling for the traumatised victims be done.

I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Ngidi.  Yes, Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I give notice, taking into consideration the new elephant-like approach of the hon Premier towards the new Provincial leader of the ANC.

I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	That this House notes with deep appreciation the positive response given by the President of the ANC, the hon Mr Thabo Mbeki at the Annual Conference of the IFP on the 19 July 1998 to the call made by the hon President of the IFP Dr M G Buthelezi for NATIONAL CONSENSUS AND OTHER PERTINENT  MATTERS and therefore calls upon all Parties in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal to work together for real peace, unity and reconciliation with the clear realisation that the use of manpower and machines will not solve the problems in areas such as Richmond and that the only road to peace is through the political will of all the people. 

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Yes, Mr Konigkramer?

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move the following motion on the next sitting day:

	1.	this House calls on the Provincial Cabinet to initiate a programme of service delivery by reducing personnel and fixed costs by 7%, in order to free up R1.5 billion for service delivery;

	2.	this House calls on the Treasury of the central government to establish a properly funded retrenchment package for KwaZulu-Natal and other provinces; and

	3.	that this House is in favour of less and more effective Government.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  	Thank you, Mr Konigkramer.  Mr Dlamini?

MR F DLAMINI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  You will pardon my hoarse voice.  I hereby give notice that on the next day I will move as follows:

	Noting:

	1.	the way in which some IFP MPL's directly violated the Rules of this House in trying to remove the Chair of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security the hon Bheki Cele from performing his duty as Chair, which duty is performed on behalf of this House; and

	2.	the considerable embarrassment this matter has caused to this House.

		Further noting: 

		that on a number of previous occasions, IFP MPL's have tried to remove Committee Chairs and have disrupted Committee meetings.

		This House resolves:

		that the Executive Board sanctions those IFP members who have brought disrepute to this Legislature through disrupting properly called Portfolio Committee meetings.

I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Dlamini.  Yes, another motion.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I hereby move as follows:

	NOTING the marriage of our hon President, President Nelson Mandela, to Graca Machel.

	THIS HOUSE RESOLVES to convey our sincere congratulations and best wishes to them and to wish our hon President and his wife many happy years together.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, thank you.  Any other better motions than the last one?  Yes, Mr Premier?

THE PREMIER:  Well, this one is really for now to be adopted immediately, or rectified immediately.  I sent a message to the President, congratulating him on his birthday on behalf of this House and the Government of KwaZulu-Natal.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE PREMIER:  And of course, I had the pleasure and honour of meeting the President and our First Lady, yesterday, at a function in Johannesburg.  He was beaming, he was in good health, he was dancing, it was wonderful.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  For the purpose of this House, I take it that this last motion is an unopposed motion and it is accepted by the House.  All agreed?

HON MEMBERS:  Yes.

THE MOTION AS MOVED BY MRS CRONJE - PASSED

THE SPEAKER:  I thought perhaps I was descending on the dead.  We proceed therefore to 8.  The Order Paper is before us.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

8.1	CONFIRMATION OF COMMISSIONER IN TERMS OF SECTION 196 (8)(b) OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA

THE SPEAKER:  I will be led by the Premier on this one.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I have been informed about the process that is prescribed by the Constitution and our own Rules, which has to be applied in selecting a provincial candidate for the position of Commissioner in the new Public Service Commission.  I would like to formally therefore propose a candidate that was unanimously supported by all the parties in this Provincial Cabinet, Mr Zondi.

Mr Speaker, the adoption of the 1996 Constitution brought about an era, that is characterised by considerable changes in the manner we have hitherto conducted the business of Public Administration.  One area that is undergoing fairly radical changes, relative to the past, is that of the Public Service Commission.  It will no doubt be recalled that we started after the 1994 elections with a Public Service Commission that serviced the National Departments and Provincial Service Commissions that serviced each of the nine provinces.  The powers and authority of these Commissions were very similar to Commissions before them, which gave them executive powers of employment, promotions, discharges and so on.

The 1996 Constitution recognises that executive powers have to be given to the Executive arm of Government, and that the Public Service Commission should not have a direct role to play in the day-to-day business of governance.

The 1996 Constitution therefore makes the Public Service Commission much more independent and impartial than it was up to now.  The Public Service Commission will henceforth concentrate on promoting the basic values and principles governing Public Administration and giving directives aimed at ensuring that personnel procedures relating to recruitment, transfers, promotions and dismissals, comply with these principles.  Investigating, monitoring and evaluating the organisation and the administration of the Public Service, including the prevailing personnel practices.  

Proposing measures to ensure effective and efficient performance within the Public Service.  Reporting in respect to its activities and performance of its functions.  Investigating grievances of Public Service employees and recommending appropriate remedies, monitoring and investigating adherence to Public Service procedures.  Investigating and evaluating the application of personnel and Public Administration practices and reporting on them to the relevant Executive Authority and Legislature, and to advise National and Provincial organs of State regarding various personnel management practices.

Mr Speaker, the new Public Service Commission will be centralised in the sense that there will be only one Public Service Commission for the Republic.  The Commission will consist of 14 commissioners, of whom five are directly appointed by the President and the other nine will each be nominated by their respective provinces.  The Premier of each province will forward the name of that province's Commissioner to the President, who will then appoint them to complete the full complement of 14.

We are here today to finalise the process that was started some months ago to call for applications, select a suitable candidate and then be confirmed by this Parliament.  After that confirmation, I will then recommend the candidate to the President.

Mr Speaker, after a long and somewhat protracted process, overseen by the Parliamentary Board, the Parliamentary Committee came to the unanimous conclusion that Mr Henry Gabriel Hlongwane Zondi is the most suitable candidate for the position of Public Service Commissioner for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  Mr Zondi is a son of this Province and boasts the following educational qualifications:  Public Service Law Examination: University of Zululand, Advanced Diploma in Public Administration: University of Zululand, Bachelor of Arts, Police Science: Unisa, Advanced Diploma in Public Administration: University of Durban-Westville, Master of Public Administration: University of Durban-Westville.  At present he is registered for a doctorate in Administration with the University of Pretoria.

Mr Zondi is a seasoned and mature public servant, who has served the former KwaZulu Public Service since 1968, and in particular commenced duties in the office of the KwaZulu Public Service Commission in 1976.  He remained in the employ of that Commission until the elections in 1994, and subsequently he was asked by the present KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Service Commission in 1994 to join its office.  His career exposed him to all the functions and duties of a Service Commissioner and he presently holds the rank of Chief Director in the Corporate Services Branch under the Director-General.

Mr Speaker, we are indeed fortunate to have secured the application of someone of Mr Zondi's experience and calibre.  What is most gratifying however, is to have noticed that the Parliamentary Committee charged with the selection of a Commissioner, was unanimous in its decision that Mr Zondi is the most suitable candidate for this position.  All parties in this House were represented in this Committee and the unanimous decision therefore not only says something very positive about the candidature of Mr Zondi, but it also demonstrates that all parties agree on a candidate, in which they have trust that he will uphold the values of this Province in the spirit of the 1996 Constitution.

Mr Speaker, I therefore put the candidature of Mr H G D Zondi to this House for a resolution that the Premier forward his name to the President for appointment to the new Public Service Commission.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Premier, are we right to put this man before the House?

RESOLUTION CONFIRMING THE NOMINATION OF THE PROVINCIAL COMMISSIONER (MR H G D ZONDI) IN TERMS OF SECTION 196 (8)(b) OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA  -  AGREED TO 

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, that disposes of 8.1.  We are at 8.2. 

8.2  REQUEST FOR A DEBATE ON THE RICHMOND ISSUE - RULING BY THE SPEAKER.
 
THE SPEAKER:  You will remember that I sent a notice to all the members to attend this debate, because in terms of the Rules in fact, we should not have been here.  This is a special sitting.  Normally you give notice of the motions before the time, and then the motions are debated.  I had ruled, on account of the fact that the matter was urgent, that the Rules would be set aside and we would discuss this matter. 

This matter has also brought about a discussion between the Whips and I have now to read the following to you:

Since giving my original ruling, agreeing to the above debate taking place, events have overtaken the necessity for this debate and I hereby reverse a ruling made by myself.  The reasons for this are as follows:

1.	Various actions have now been taken by the Security Forces.  They have indicated that an extensive exercise is being undertaken to deal with the issues in Richmond.

2.	A committee has already been established, which is to co-ordinate the actions in the town.

3.	I would not wish a debate in the House to detract from the primary responsibility which we have of resolving the issues in Richmond.

That is the situation at present.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, may I address you on your ruling?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  I beg your pardon?

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  May I address you on your ruling?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  In terms of the Rules, it is not possible to open a debate on a ruling of this nature.  That is why I had previously made a request to all members against the Rules, normally you should give notice of the motions and the matter will be discussed the following day, but ...

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order, may I address you on a point of order?  The point of order is that this morning, in terms of Rule 101, notice was in fact served on you, or on your office, which avoided the technicality that you raised.  In other words, this very morning you were again requested in terms of Rule 101 for a special debate on this matter.

THE SPEAKER:  To be honest with you, Mr Schutte, I have not received that.  I have not received that.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, that documentation was in fact in my presence handed in at your office.  May I just in support of that say that it will in fact be very sad, that when in the last three weeks there have been 40 people murdered in this Province, for obviously political reasons, when three of those people ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Just a minute, Mr Rajbansi, he is on a point of order.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I am on a point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  No, he is on a point of order already.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, when three of those persons have been killed ...

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, can I also rise on a point of order here.  What the hon member is doing, is actually delivering his speech that he prepared for the debate.  We cannot have this type of subterfuge.  The Speaker has given his ruling, the issues are clearly within the Speaker's ambit and competence to deal with and let us respect the Speaker's ruling.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Premier.  As I have already said, I have made a ruling on this matter.  It is not proper to debate the ruling of the Speaker on this issue, and for that reason, the matter ends there.  The question of it being right or wrong for the Speaker to make a decision is entirely another matter.  Mr Rajbansi, I hope you are not raising this issue any more.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I want to make an appeal to you, Mr Speaker, that in connection with this matter, which we have correctly dealt with, I saw the SABC Television doing a recording on a possible debate.  Through you I want to appeal to the SABC that they either be all inclusive or non-inclusive of one party.

THE SPEAKER:  I am afraid as I said that I am not aware of what Mr Schutte has said.  I have made a ruling on this matter and I cannot go back on it.  It is a pity that I was never informed because then I would not have made that decision.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, I stand up to address you on a point of order, not with reference to your ruling as you have indicated.  The fact is that at your office this morning in terms of Rule 101, another application was made to you and I believe that this House is entitled to a decision from you on that application.

THE SPEAKER:  I am afraid we will never come to the end of this.  I have made a ruling, I do not know if I am expected to reverse my ruling, which I have already made.  Nevertheless, I want to take this opportunity and grant Mr Bartlett an opportunity to address this House, because at the end of the month Mr Bartlett is leaving us.  He is an old member of Parliament, having had about 24 years in Parliament and he thinks the time has come to call it a day.  For that reason I have granted Mr Bartlett an opportunity to sing his swan song before us here.  The hon Mr Bartlett.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity, as you say, to say good-bye to all my colleagues.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!

MR G S BARTLETT:  I would have thought the hon member would have given me a chance to do things in the correct manner.  I would like him to do the same.  As you said, sir, I have been a member of Parliament for 24 years and three months come the 23rd of this month.  As time goes on in one's life, one realises that there is little time left to do the things that perhaps one would like to do, but has found, as a person, as a public representative, we do not have the time to do it.  I have taken the advice of myself and my family and friends and decided that it is time to say good-bye.

I have had a good innings.  I went to Parliament in 1974 in an opposition party.  I fought the National Party from the opposition benches for some ten years.  I was fortunate enough, Mr Speaker, to see the start of the reforms taking place way back as early as 1975 through to 1978.  I was very pleased to have been able to have been part of the major reforms in President De Klerk's Cabinet, that took place from 1989 through to 1994.  During this period, Mr Speaker, I found that I made friends across all lines of the political parties.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR G S BARTLETT:  I found, Mr Speaker, that in the position in which we are, and it is a very privileged and honoured position to be a member of Parliament, in the spirit of a Parliament, in the Committees and with the trips and the tours we take together, we do build friendships across party lines.  In so-doing, Mr Speaker, I found that I could begin to appreciate and understand the feelings, the ideals and the objectives of those that I were opposing in Parliament.  I found myself back in the opposition benches, starting back in 1994 and here too again, I begun to appreciate that everybody has a point of view and we should consider their point of view.  We should, as a Parliament endeavour to find the answers to the very pressing problems, not of the political problems only, sir, but certainly of the social and economic problems of our people.

Therefore I want to say thank you to all the people who have made my 24 years so pleasant.  Especially to people like yourself, Mr Speaker.  I thank you for the courtesies you have shown me and the opportunities you have given me, and previous Speakers in these 24 years of mine.  Not only you, sir, but the Secretary for Parliament, all the clerks and even the messengers and all the staff that were involved in Parliament.  I want to thank them for making my term of office a very enjoyable and fruitful one.

I want to thank my leader and previous leaders and my colleagues in my own Party for all the opportunities I have been given.  I also want to thank fellow colleagues in the IFP, the ANC and the three minority parties, or is it four, for their collegiality and their friendship over the years.  It has meant a lot to me.  We may have had arguments in this House, but it has meant a lot to me when someone from another party, as happened recently, came by and put his hand forward and I shook it.  That meant an awful lot to me, sir, even though that we had had, in the debate, great differences.

I want to thank my voters that in the past voted for me, especially in the old constituency system.  I thank the Press for giving me, I think, I fair deal over the 24 years.  I am speaking personally.

Not the least, Mr Speaker, by any means, is the people that are closest to us, and that is our families, our wives and children and other members of the family.  They suffer a lot when their husbands, or fathers, or wives, or mothers are in politics, because our time is so pre-occupied with other things.

Sir, I am happy to say that I do not have many regrets over the years.  I like to think I made a contribution.  I believe - and my colleagues may bear me out - I was the first person to rise in a joint caucus of my Party, including all the provinces, when it was led by P W Botha, to say the time has come, I believed, that we should open our ranks to all races.  It is a little thing, but to me it was a major thing, sir, to be able to have got up and said that.  It was not many months later that the decision was taken.

Now I am going to depart at a time where I believe this Province is again facing very difficult times.  We have heard about the killing of people.  It is very sad that this should be happening four years after a truly democratic election.  I believe that in time, the hon colleagues that are here, and the ones that will be re-elected or elected next year, will solve these problems.  But to solve them, sir, I believe we have got to be prepared to listen to the other person's point of view and also to make concessions.  I hope, and I am quite sure that in time, that will happen here.

I wish you all the very best.  I am not retiring and going out to seed, sir, I am planning a whole new career.  I will don my working clothes and you may see me as you pass my farm, you may see things happening there that is happening now.  I am enjoying getting out and doing good physical work again, getting myself back close to mother earth and I am going to enjoy it as I go into the latter years of my life.

To all my colleagues, all the very best, have a good election.  I am not going to be a part of it.  Fight the fight cleanly, if you can.  I find it very difficult to believe, Mr Speaker, that there are members sitting here today who are not aware of what is going on in the killing fields of this Province.  I speak from my heart, I cannot believe that there are people here who are not aware of what is happening.  I make an appeal to them, is it worth it?  Is not the unity of our people, their love for our country, their very lives worth an effort to get together and make this Province, sir, the great Province it can be.  That is the challenge.  That is the challenge for those I am leaving here.  But having said that, sir, I might as well sit down and I want to thank my colleagues for giving me, and showing me the courtesy to make this speech.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Bartlett.  I wish you all the success with your new career.  All the best to you.  You have given a long swan song and all I can say, that which you have done, may God within Himself make pure - that is what King Arthur said to Sir Bedivere and I apply the same to you.

Gentlemen, this is not open debate.  Mr Bartlett has spoken and it should be the end of the day's proceedings.  The man who has recently been with the IFP, and is now in the ANC, has a word to say.  Are you changing your mind in order to go back?

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  No, no, no.  Mr Speaker, I just wanted to say a word or two just to say farewell to Mr Bartlett, a colleague we have worked with, if it will not offend your Rules, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER: Without opening a debate, but to felicities of this nature, I am agreeable.  The hon Minister may proceed.  I hope you do not lose the patience of your friend, Mr Makhaye, by being elongated in your speech.

MR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker, I have negotiated that already.  But we just too, from the ANC, would like to wish Mr Bartlett everything of the best for his retirement.  It has been a pleasure working with Mr Bartlett in the Cabinet.  We will also remember him for his friendliness.  It has been very interesting listening to his experience.  Mr Speaker he was the first member of the National Party that I ever worked very close to and as he was my neighbour in the Cabinet ...

MR D H MAKHAYE:  You began to transform him.

MR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Our member here, Dr Sutcliffe, has been saying and it reminds me of a story that when he was a young student some years back he asked Mr Bartlett if the United Party were to come to power whether they would ever allow the Communist Party to operate legally.  Of course he said no, it must be banned.  We have come a long way from that time and we have also come a long way from 1994.  From the time that we have worked together, in 1994 up to now, we have actually felt that there has been a spirit of working together, a spirit of co-operation, that actually did transcend the different party political interests, and that is one of the keys to the success of this particular Cabinet.  We were able to move to a point where together we could operate as a Government where it did not matter too much which party you came from.

I must thank Mr Bartlett for his contribution at this level.  We still face the same challenges of crime, unemployment, the violence that we have spoken about, but we think that we will carry on with the fight in the way we have actually resolved in this House to work together.  But for you and your family, we want to wish you everything of the best, and we hope that you will have a very fruitful time during your retirement and we want to remind you about the issue of the bull - I do not know if any of my colleagues are here.  Now, for the colleagues who want to know that story, we will talk about it outside this House.  We really have enjoyed working with you, as well as being a member of this House.  So we wish you everything of the best together with your family.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Before rounding it all up, a request has been made here for a photograph of all the members of the Legislature outside here.  Shall we therefore, after leaving here, proceed to have the photograph taken.  The Premier?

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to join in the felicitations for Mr Bartlett.  He served in the Cabinet of this Province of KwaZulu-Natal, as the Minister of Agriculture.  He himself is a highly qualified person, a qualified engineer with tremendous experience in the sugar industry.  Those talents and that expertise will always be needed in this Province.

I do hope you will be a participant in the upliftment, in the reconstruction and development that we are faced with in this Province.  But above all, I hope you will be a good ambassador for the Provincial Government and Cabinet, because the real challenge we face is to forge a new South Africa, a new spirit of nationhood, so that people do not see reconstruction, affirmative action, and all the necessary things in empowering those who were previously disadvantaged, as a threat to themselves.

I address this concern particularly to the white community in this Province, that they should be part of the transformation.  That the transformation pains may hurt all of us, but ultimately it is for the welfare, the progress and prosperity of future generations of KwaZulu-Natal and South Africa.  I do hope, sir, that you will assist this Government through helping to change attitudes, to help people to develop a good progressive mind search.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I am going to keep it short, but I too would wish to join in the discussion.  Our best wishes to Mr Bartlett on his retirement from active party politics in this Chamber and in other legislative bodies.  I was just looking about, I think Mr Tarr and I are probably the ones in this House who have been - at the moment - the longest serving members in legislative bodies with Mr Bartlett - for some 15 years, I certainly had with him, and I want to tell you, we had some rip-roaring fights in those times.  I trust that Mr Bartlett, when he puts his hands in the soil and returns to mother earth, will shed the difficulties and the troubles that he has had with other political parties as night follows day.  We wish him well in the bosom of his family and may he enjoy his retirement.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, may I plead for your indulgence.  It would be unfair to me, personally, if I did not say anything to my departing friend.  Mr Speaker, I agree it is high time Mr Bartlett retired from active politics.  The fact that he could not count how many minority parties there are here in this House when there are four, it shows that he needs to go and ... [LAUGHTER]  He finally got it.

But on a serious note, Mr Speaker, I, personally, on behalf of my party, will miss Mr Bartlett's arguments as it is known that we are new in this field.  The way he put his arguments, sometimes it is so violently, and yet truthful and peaceful.  We will definitely miss him.  My appeal to him, since he has the opportunity of having land, may he go and produce more food for the Province and for the country, because he has the land.  When the PAC takes over and he has not produced on the land, he may find some difficulty.  I thank him.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Rajbansi, felicitations are permitted.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The Minority Front want to wish Mr Bartlett well, not with his retirement, because he is still going to be of service to this country, in other spheres of human endeavour.  I have had the opportunity of seeing Mr Bartlett in action, not only in Parliamentary debates, but also as a good constituency man.  I think the success of a political representative is measured to the extent to which you are able to service your constituency.  He is one of the unique members, I am convinced he could have won his constituency, Amanzimtoti, on any party for which he stood.

We all know that he has been a very good and skilful debater.  One of the good things which our hon Minister of Health indicated, was after 1994, that we were able to share our knowledge and share our experiences.  The other thing, the very fact that the greatness of our Constitution, which allowed for the Government of National Unity, enabled us to do this.  But we are thankful for the fact that he is only withdrawing from the Legislature, but still will continue to be of service to our country in another important area of activity, that is agriculture.  To Mr Bartlett and his family, we want to wish them well.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, the Christian Democratic Party?

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, I crave your indulgence as well.  It would be very rude if I did not have an opportunity to also wish Mr Bartlett congratulations and good wishes on his retirement.  I am probably one of the shortest serving members of the Legislature, so it is probably appropriate that I end off in saying farewell to one of the longest serving members of the Legislature.

When Dr Mdlalose resigned, my comments to him proved to be somewhat prophetic, as he did not end up retiring and he has taken up another position.  I hope my comments here will be prophetic too.  If I can join in with my colleagues in saying that we definitely need people with skill and goodwill in this country to build on what we have started, and very often that is not in this place, but out there amongst the people.  I hope that you will really continue with the good work that you have done and really work with the people on your farm.  Good luck.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Schutte?

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  On behalf of the National Party.... 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, please!  Mr Makhaye, you do not have the right to stop anybody.  Just shut up.  [LAUGHTER]  Please, carry on.

AN HON MEMBER:  Red card, red card!

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, we would also like to record our appreciation for what we believe is a great contribution that George Bartlett made in the general political life of our country for many years, in the National Party, in this Province, also in the highest executive body of this Province and in the country, nationally, in the highest executive body.  

We believe that he has made tangible contributions.  On a personal level, we thank him for his great personal warmth, for his sincerity, for his enthusiasm and for his drive.  I do not think George Bartlett holds any grudges against anybody and I do not think that he has any permanent enemies.  As politicians, we all have enemies, I believe, some for a long term, some for a short term, but I do not think that George Bartlett has permanent enemies.

It has been a great privilege for us to work so closely with George Bartlett and we wish him a very successful and, I believe that what he actually wants is a busy retirement, and we wish him that as well.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Schutte.  Well, we have now come to the end of the proceedings for the day.  You will remember the photograph and I therefore declare this meeting close sine die.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 15:42 SINE DIE 

	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	FOURTH SITTING - FIRST SITTING DAY
	THURSDAY, 13 AUGUST 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 14:07 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please, Mr Makhaye.  Order please, Mr Makhaye, take your seat and do less talking.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, it gives me great pleasure today, on behalf of the ANC, to welcome our new member and comrade, Mr Walter Felgate, who is ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!  Order please!

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member has the floor, please, let her discharge her obligations.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I would also like to introduce him to this hon House as a worthy addition to the ANC team.  Welcome, Mr Felgate.

AN HON MEMBER:  He has also got spots on his shoulders.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order, please!  Obituaries and ceremonial matters.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Ceremonial matters.

THE SPEAKER:

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, I crave your indulgence.  I would like to introduce, shortly to take the Oath of Office, our new member replacing Mr George Bartlett, Mr Raj Morar, who has been an Executive Committee Member of the Durban South Central Council since 1996.  Mr Morar resides in Chatsworth in Durban.  He is very involved with community affairs.  He is definitely the real Raj of the people.  I will ask that he be brought in.

MR R MORAR IS ESCORTED INTO THE CHAMBER.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MR A RAJBANSI:  A point of order, Mr Speaker, please.

THE SPEAKER:  Will the hon member come forward for the oath-taking please.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, the hon member says he is the real Raj of Chatsworth, that is a royalty that only belongs to me.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE SPEAKER:  With all apologies, Raj.  Order, please!  You have brought Mr Raj Morar.  Mr Raj Morar, I will put it to you, do you object to taking an oath, or do you want to make an affirmation? 

MR R MORAR:  I will take an oath.

THE SPEAKER:  The oath is before you now.  You will read it and you are aware that this oath is binding on your conscience.  Thank you very much.  Please read the oath.

MR R MORAR SWORN IN

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  Sign the form please and hand it to the Secretary.  Welcome to the Legislature.  I look forward to you taking part in the Legislature's work and be worthy of your position as a member of your Party.  Thank you.

Order!  Bheki Cele.  Mr Bheki Cele, I crave your attention, please.  Please stop making yourself a problem.  Thank you.

3.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

THE SPEAKER:  The announcement that I am going to make is with regard to the Resolution of the KwaZulu Provincial Legislature in terms of the Political Office Bearers Fund that is going to be established. 

8.2  RESOLUTION FOR THE APPOINTMENT OF THE INTERIM TRUSTEE TO THE POLITICAL OFFICE-BEARERS PENSION FUND IN TERMS OF RULE 104(G). 

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Volker has already been nominated and we look forward to this House resolving that Mr Volker and Mr F Dlamini as an alternative be accepted.  I think you have the necessary papers in your possession.  Have they been supplied to the House?  Yes.  And therefore, I want to put a resolution to this House that you resolve, as in terms of the Paper before you now.

RESOLUTION - AGREED TO.

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Volker and his alternate, Mr Dlamini, will be the members of the Trust for this Fund.  This is the announcement I had to make.  We will proceed with No. 5 on the Order Paper.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Minister of Finance.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the Premier, I wish to inform you and the House that the Premier is attending a Premier's Forum today, a meeting that was arranged well in advance and where it is essential that he be present to represent our Province.  Accordingly, I, on his behalf, tender his apologies to you, Mr Speaker and to the House for his absence from the House today.  It could not be helped in the light of the fact that this meeting was changed from the originally scheduled day last week to today.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Minister of Finance.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Minister of Economic Affairs first, and then Mr Volker.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to table two annual reports.  First the report of KwaZulu Transport Services Corporation Limited the KTS, as well as the Annual Report of the KFC.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The hon Mr Volker, please.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker I would like to table the report of the Auditor-General on the Personnel Expenditure of the Provincial Administration of KwaZulu-Natal for 1995/1996.  This report will be handed out to all members and I would request them to make sure that they acquaint themselves with the contents thereof.  I table the report.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	That this hon House, having acknowledged the fact that the economy of the country and the upliftment of disadvantaged people can mainly be addressed through the promotion of small, medium and microenterprises and having acknowledged the fact that there is bitterness in the SMME sectors, calls upon the Government to ensure that SMME's are promoted in real practical terms at all levels.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The hon Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I shall move on the next sitting day:

	This House commits itself fully to the Good Governance programme in the KZN administration and in particular calls upon the administration and each executive authority to:

	(a)	ensure that fully functioning Parliamentary Liaison Officers are appointed;

	(b)	that a policy for replying to communications from legislators and other members of the public be adopted and fully monitored and that this includes set time limits for responding to verbal and written communications;  and

	(c)	that a pro-active stance be taken to fully inform the public on how complaints regarding non-response from KZN officials and executive offices can be brought to the attention of senior management.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Edwards, and then Mr Nel.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I will give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I will move:

	That this House requests the hon Ministers of Education and Finance to advise on progress made in KwaZulu-Natal in:

	1.	obtaining adequate funding to ensure the provision of quality teaching and learning which includes optimum staffing levels and supply of textbooks and educational aids which is at present sadly lacking and leading education into a phase of rapidly declining standards.

	2.	establishing proper control over employment costs including elimination of fraud and corruption in addressing known problems in administration systems in identifying ghost teachers, fraudulent education qualifications, housing subsidies, subsistence travelling vehicle subsidies and the like.

	3.	finalising the long overdue appointment and status of the so-called temporary teachers.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Edwards.  Mr Nel, please.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day:

	That this House:

	noting that an Area Priority Committee has been established in terms of National Policing Policy to deal with the situation in Richmond/Indaleni

	noting further that three weekly meetings have been held to date and widely supported by political parties, NGO's, churches and other organisations.  Hereby expresses its concern that neither the ANC structures, nor the TLC have been represented at any of these meetings and calls on the ANC provincial leadership to take urgent steps to ensure that this unacceptable situation is rectified forthwith.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Oh yes?

MR J C N WAUGH:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move:

	That:

	(1)	this House takes note of the high levels of crime in our Province, 

	(2)	the large number of murders of innocent people; and 

	(3)	takes note of the inability of the National Government to deal with these matters.  

	This House calls on the National Government to get their act together and deal with crime as a matter of urgency, and calls on the Province to urgently discuss and approve the Private Members Bill of the hon Mr Gordon Haygarth, titled the "Bill of Promotion of Police Efficiency and Improved Community Relations".

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, on a point of order, I refer to Rule 80, regarding the business of the day.  The National Party, through the hon Mr Schutte, did deliver to yourself, today, a request for a debate on a matter of urgent Public Importance under Rule 101 of the standing Rules.  This does not appear on the Order Paper and the National Party has not agreed to the Order Paper as it stands today.  We should like your ruling on this matter.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much for that, Mr Edwards.  This proposal will follow this debate.  I have arranged that this should take place.  It will probably follow after 8.1 on the Orders of the Day and we will deal with the resolution which is moved by your Party.  This House will debate the devastating effect the crime and political violence, which has swept through the Province and South Africa has had and will consider the initiatives that should be taken to address this critical situation.  Have no fear, this will be done after 8.1, because we have disposed of 8.2.  We now come to 8.1.  May I have a list of names from my Whips to start a debate on that.  I do have the list here in front of me and it is therefore my pleasure to call upon Minister Singh, Minister of Agriculture, to address this House for 14 minutes, or less than that.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

8.1	DEBATE ON THE COMMISSION FOR THE PROMOTION AND PROTECTION OF THE RIGHTS OF CULTURAL, RELIGIOUS AND LINGUISTIC COMMUNITIES.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  First of all I would like to welcome the new members to this Legislature.  It gives me great pleasure, on behalf of the IFP to support the establishment of the Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities that is enshrined in Section 185 of our Constitution.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  Mr Speaker, the hon member on the other side says it has got nothing to do with agriculture.  Well, culture is a part of agriculture, so that is why I am the first speaker in this debate here.  [LAUGHTER]

Mr Speaker, the IFP's policy represents a comprehensive set of core values, which values include the enhancement of religious, political, economic, individual and cultural freedom.  We wholeheartedly support the right of all cultural communities to have autonomy over all matters that effect the protection and promotion of their languages, culture, religions and traditions in particular.

As a South African of Indian origin, I am able to identify with my own cultural heritage.  Like all cultures, the Indian culture is distinctive in character with universal appeal.  Indian culture is the product of ancient civilization that flourished from the time of the Indus valley era about 5,000 years ago, and is enshrined by interaction and synthesis of various cultural streams that poured into India.  This culture was carried to other shores, not through conquest and war, but through peaceful means.  Indian immigrants have taken their culture with them to places as far flung as Fiji and Mauritius, Singapore and Surinam, and of course, brought it to our country, South Africa.

The Indians who migrated from India in 1860 brought with them their own cultural heritage, their religion, their language, music and own social practices.  As a result of their strong cultural background they have been able to maintain their identity.  Some children were fortunate enough to receive the rudiments of the Indian language from educated elders, like the hon Mr Meer, who may be counted among the many unsung personalities of early education.

It is these educators who created the basis for future efforts and provided the impetus for the promotion of culture among Indians.  Indians spoke their mother tongue with a tremendous sense of pride, this linguistic desire slowly permeated different parts of the country.  Thus the establishment of country vernacular schools to expand the learning of Indian languages and music.

Enshrined in Hinduism is a legacy, Mr Speaker, of moral, spiritual and technical values, which are human values, and these include: Truth, Right Conduct, Peace, Love, and most importantly, non-Violence.  These five human values are inherent in all world religions.  Hindu philosophy espouses these values in a very systematic manner in a world acclaimed programme called Education in Human Values.  This is a universal educational programme without any religious, cultural or other bias, but aims merely at integrating universal values back into the educational system.  I think we sorely need this kind of introduction into our country at this moment in time, where values seem to be taking a back-seat amongst many of our youngsters particularly.

Hon members, we need to recognise that our society is essentially heterogenous in nature with a mosaic of minorities.  Over the years cultural leaders have warned us of the need to preserve our languages, or else we would have to face the erosion of such languages.  There is no doubt that the establishment of such a Commission will recognise the dignity of all cultural communities, as well as the responsibility to respect other cultures and communities, to be tolerant, to participate in, contribute to and ensure the development of a common multi-cultural nation.

However, Mr Speaker, in order to ensure the success, or even the evidence of such a Commission succeeding in its mammoth task, I cannot begin to stress how important funding, especially in KwaZulu-Natal, will be to ensure that the programmes that are set in place are sustainable.  At this moment in time, the Department of Education and Culture in our Province, is engaged in ensuring that teachers are available on a part-time basis to schools in and around the Province to ensure that languages are taught.

However, with the budgetary constraints, I have been given to understand that this kind of service will not be able to be maintained on a continued basis.  We need to look at avenues for funding, and in this regard I hope that the Commission will apply its mind to the particular aspect of funding, funding Government agencies, funding NGO's, which are presently engaged in promoting culture and language of all communities here in South Africa.  The need for funding is absolutely critical, or else a Commission will simply vaporize and its findings will just vanish into thin air.  We cannot allow this to happen, Mr Speaker, for we need to look to the continued sustainability and viability of programmes.

Secondly, we cannot simply welcome such a Commission.  We need to ensure that whatever programmes and projects it espouses, is adopted and applied.  The establishment of such a Commission should not be seen as some electioneering ploy or tool.  Only after the elections in 1999, will legislation be drafted, after the findings of the Committee and after public hearings, will such a Commission be established.  We must make sure that soon after the 1999 elections, when all Provincial legislatures and the National Assembly have had their first sitting, that this item becomes a priority in their debates.

There is no doubt, Mr Speaker, that the survival of any cultural heritage hinges on language.  Most Indian languages with their philosophical approach assists, and I would say, all other languages, assist in the building of character, instilling of social awareness, enabling the development of critical thinking, produces leadership qualities and encourages service to the community.

However, Mr Speaker, it saddens me to read of the abolition of Indian languages in universities and schools.  When we teach our children about culture, we are passing our heritage from one generation to the next, and by doing so, we are ensuring that our children have a good sense of who they are, and an understanding of their place within their community.  A child needs a sense of foundation and support in order that they may grow to realise their full potential in every aspect of their lives.  There is no greater gift which we can give our children when we give them a sense of roots and a promise of wings.

The Indian ancestry, similar to African cultures is painstakingly created.  Language gives one a sense of belonging to the ethos, tradition and spirit of being in a particular grouping.  The pride of belonging to such a grouping is reinforced with a knowledge of an influence in the language.  It all gives one a sense of historical perspective, an association with all that is noble, true, rich and valuable.  In all this we cannot allow culture to be weakened or lose its value, or else we would simply fade into obscurity.

Mr Speaker, the principles of one's culture are timeless.  These principles are those of strength, wisdom, compassion, understanding, communication, honesty and love.  These are the principles which characterise the life of many people, and it is for this reason we cannot put aside the diversity of our communities.

My Party has continually adopted the principles of ~Ubuntu~ botho, and it is upon these principles that the Inkatha Freedom Party is built.  Minority groups need to reinforce their commitment to carry their traditions, social philosophy and heritage into the future.  I believe, Mr Speaker, that this Commission will help us celebrate our diversity.

I want to end my contribution to this debate by quoting from Chief Albert Luthuli:
  
	Somewhere ahead, there beckons a civilisation, a culture which will take its place in the parade of God's history, beside other great human syntheses, Chinese, Egyptian, Jewish, European and Indian.  It will not necessarily be all black, but it will be African.

With that, Mr Speaker, my Party fully supports the establishment of the Commission, and we look forward to the Legislature organising public hearings so that we may hear from NGO's and other interested parties what their views are on the establishment of this Commission, and on the recognition of the diversity of the people of South Africa.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  It is now my pleasure to call upon the hon Dr I C Meer to address us for 10 minutes.

MR I C MEER:  Mr Speaker, the first question this House must ask, is why Section 185 was incorporated in our Constitution.  I was present at CODESA where the matter was discussed, and the answer was, we are in an abnormal society and to make that society normal, we have to apply our mind to the question of culture, language and religion, besides the economic underlying issue.  In other words, if religion, if languages, and if culture, were given equal treatment from 1652 until the rise and fall of the National Party, we would not have had this section included in our Constitution.  It is an admission of the horrible wrongs done to human beings in this country for over 300 years.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR I C MEER:  The language question is important and I would like to remind my friend, Mr Narend Singh, that the first Indians in South Africa did not come with the S S Truro in 1860.  They came in 1657 as Bengali-speaking slaves. Fifty two percent of foreign slaves in the Cape were from Bengal and spoke that great language (after whom we have got the Bengal Tiger here).  [LAUGHTER]  The language of Rabindranath Tagore, the language which is respected throughout the world as one of the greatest achievements of human beings.  That language, mingled with the Malaysian language which contributed to over 40% of foreign slaves, and of course there was High Dutch, spoken by the rulers.

Arising from that amalgam and the death of those three languages, came the Afrikaans language.  We want now to ensure in South Africa that even the dying languages of the day that were neglected over the long period of white domination in this country do not die.  This contemplated Commission must be empowered to see that those languages, even in their dying days, are revived and given their due recognition.  That is the purpose of this Section.  It has nothing to do with 1652, it has nothing to do with the five Indian languages which are now incorporated in the Constitution, that is Hindi, Tamil, Telugu, Gujarathi and Urdu.
 
It is today a day for us to mourn the fact that nobody speaks the Malaysian language in South Africa, nobody speaks the Bengali language in South Africa.  If ~Apartheid~ had continued, there would be no-one in this country that would be speaking the Nguni language or the Sotho language.  Because those languages were not financed, they were not promoted, they were not advanced, whereas all the money, hundreds of millions of rands, went towards promoting from 1924 onwards the Afrikaans language, falsely and artificially advanced at the expense of the majority of the people of this country.  Afrikaans was financed so that they could have a theatre of their own, they could have poetry of their own and they forced that language even on our people.  In Soweto in 1976 our students rebelled against the enforced teaching of that language, that is Afrikaans.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR I C MEER:  It is that historic past that we want to correct, and from this Parliament we want to send a message to the National Parliament what our views are on that question.  I tried to get a definition, as I was telling somebody of what culture means.  I thought I would consult the most available and the nearest sociologist on that point and I was left a bit more confused than I was when I started consulting.  But let me point out that of culture, food is an important item.  
It is a miracle that the samosas and the breyanis survived the ~Apartheid~ era.  [LAUGHTER]  Samoosas and breyani with rice was found on the shores of the Indian Ocean, where no Indian was allowed to swim.  On that shore every hotel had samoosas and every hotel had breyani.  That food culture they were not able to kill.  Curry and rice survived racism.

I went to Ndwedwe and I do not claim to be an Indian, I claim to be an African, and my culture is the amalgam of Tawhid, Ahimsa and ~Ubuntu~.  It is a dovetailing of these three, which is my culture.  The most important cultural weapon that I possess is hence PEACE and TOLERANCE, which is the greatest gift that God has given to humanity, gifts which must be preserved.

I found that while the death of those languages took place, how many people in Indian homes today speak any of the five languages which are to be promoted and advanced in terms of our Constitution?  My children, my grandchildren, they speak Zulu, but they do not speak Urdu.  Urdu was never encouraged, never given the opportunity to develop as Afrikaans was developed and imposed on us as the language of the dominant white group, which we were forced to learn in our schools.  We found it very difficult in this Province to even communicate in that language with others, because very few people spoke it.  But we had to learn it and we were told in some classes, the only lecture you will get would be in Afrikaans.

What happened to our religion?  Judge Albie Sachs has written an introduction to a very important book on this question, and he says that there are direct forms of racial oppression in South Africa, and he says rather reluctantly he has to admit that Christianity as a religion interpreted by our rulers, became a religion of oppression in this country.  So much so that Judge Searle in 1913 in the Cape Provincial Division of the Supreme Court of South Africa, gave a ruling, whilst Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi was in this country, that every Hindu marriage, every Muslim marriage, was in fact not marriage at all.  That my father and my mother were living in sin and I was an illegitimate child.  That was the judgment given and it was said that only marriages which were conducted in terms of Christianity were recognised in this country, (otherwise the rest of the husbands and wives were living in sin).  The wives were concubines and their children were illegitimate children.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR I C MEER:  We are to rectify that error.  We have to see that in this Parliament of the democratic South Africa there is a respect for the customary union.  I do not know, it depends on how many cattle I have before I can think of what my President has done, I do not want to follow in his footsteps.  But we had problems, and as lawyers, in terms of the Motor Vehicle Ordinance, if there was a collision and if a person had more than one wife, what was the position, who got the compensation?

The majority in this country, the largest language group was the Nguni group and the largest sub-division of the Nguni group were the Zulus, and their rights were not respected in terms of the marriages, and it had serious economic consequences in the law of our country.  We have got a duty now, as this Legislature, responsible to the majority in South Africa, to the majority in this Province, to put right a wrong of history.

Language, religion and culture.  I think at a cultural level we have moved differently.  I grew up in Waschbank and my most important dish was isijabane.  I do not see this in Durban any more.  It is not there, although you find imfino there, but nobody prepares isijabane as my mother did.  It is not available.  We have now to bring to the fore that we have not our own culture in this country.  Although we are democratic, awoken in the way that Tagore wanted us to wake.  He said to paraphrase:

	Let my country awaken to that heaven of freedom where there is a reason, justice and respect for every human being.

We must, from this Parliament, send the minutes of this debate to the National Parliament so that they can understand that we are not condoning this error.  We have reached a milestone in our destination in the long walk to freedom.  Indeed, we have reached political and legal equality, but the long walk to equity on religion, on language and on culture, lies ahead of us.  Let us on these matters forget our party-political differences.  Let us unitedly pledge ourselves to uphold AHIMSA, TAWHID and ~UBUNTU~ and let us say that the only weapon we have as peace-loving people is peace and tolerance.  With those powerful cultural weapons we can make South Africa a new Garden of Eden, a new Garden of ~Ubuntu~, where human beings can be human beings and live in peace and harmony together and rid it of the serpent of ~Apartheid~.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Doctor.  We now call upon the hon Mr Aulsebrook to address us for 10 minutes.  The hon Mr Aulsebrook.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Speaker and hon members of this House.  This debate is long overdue.  The people of this country need to speak their minds on issues, certainly issues that are as great as this, and of greater concern, more so than before in the history of this country.

A lot has been said of our Rainbow Nation and of our new found freedom over the past four years, but what has eluded us is the development of a true united national spirit, is a sense of belonging, of pride and of love for our country.  We have had glimpses of it when Bafana-Bafana played in the World Cup, when the Amabokoboko won the World Cup Rugby Tournament, and when our swimmers and athletes won gold at the Olympics.  We all felt good, we stood together, but unfortunately that pride and common bond was very short-lived.

The question we face today is what are the circumstances that are blocking this nation-building, what is keeping us apart, and what changes are required to normalise our society?

The facts are, we are all South Africans and we love our country, in spite of being culturally diverse.  We speak many different languages, we are of different race groups, we are of different religions, but we also have a Constitution that guarantees our rights, freedom and certainly equality.  

Turning to religion, we are fortunate that we have not faced religious intolerance at the levels that other countries have and I sincerely hope we never end up in that situation again.

It is no good us constantly looking back at our past, we actually need to now start looking forward.  Learn the lessons of our past.  Those are the things that caused the abnormal society that we live in.  So long as we have learned those lessons, we can at least look to a brighter future.

Yes, we can discuss the establishment of a Cultural Commission here today, but what will a Cultural Commission do, given the present circumstances.  It can embark on a Green Paper, a White Paper process, come up with cultural policy, maybe even pass some cultural legislation, which also may cost as much as maybe the TRC, which never really achieved the reconciliation one hoped it was going to achieve.  Is this a solution to the problem we face?

We as a nation, will have to undergo a miraculous change if we are to achieve any of the goals of the Rainbow Nation.  Change is even greater than the miracles that we experienced in 1994.  We will have to overcome the effects and attitudes that have become so ingrained through the ~Apartheid~ era and certainly some of the negative effects of the armed struggle.  Effects such as intolerance, racism and insecurity are the real enemies of nation-building.  Racism, be it white on black, black on white, anti-Indian, we have got to be honest, it is there, it is under the surface all the time, and we need to deal with it.  Insecurity, which arises from poverty, crime and the feeling of being unwanted.  Intolerance, there is racial intolerance, cultural intolerance, minimal religious intolerance as I have mentioned and Mr Meer mentioned.  We need to understand and respect one another's cultural differences and value systems, and until such time as we have learned to do that, there is no way forward in dealing with this problem.

Let us look at possible solutions.  The main protagonists of these ills that I have spoken of, are very often the politicians, who build their power bases on people's fears and hatred.  If we can change the attitude of many of our politicians, get them to work for people to promote the common good of all South Africans, we will be making progress.  If they can only learn to lead the way.  Even political parties tend to racially polarise our people.  If politicians, parties, were all to focus on social upliftment and economic development, half the battle will be won.  Then a Cultural Commission has an excellent opportunity of succeeding, and will be able to cater for our cultural diversity in a meaningful way.

As a white South African, living here in KwaZulu-Natal, it is with great pride that I introduce foreign visitors to our Province's rich Zulu traditional heritage, and to the Indian culture, their temples, their mosques and their cuisine, Mr Meer has also referred to.  To be honest, I envy these cultures with their strong, distinctive cultural backgrounds.  One being indigenous, the other being imported.  The preservation of cultural identity is most crucial and certainly to preserve our cultural diversity and to show tolerance, may well be the key we are looking for to national unity.  Certainly my party's policy of pluralism promotes this philosophy.

It is my opinion that if genuine, mutual respect is shown for our cultural differences, the much dreamed of Rainbow Nation can become a reality and speeches of two nations a thing of the past.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I now call upon the hon Mr Volker to address the House.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, the purpose of this debate which was requested to be co-ordinated nationally, in all nine provinces and at national level, was to lay the foundation of guidelines to be submitted to a Commission on cultural values.  So the inputs that are made here, will basically be recorded and presented to the Commission.

It is part of the recognition of the need in a country, constituted of diverse communities, peoples and value systems to promote the interests of nation-building, and as such, it is important that in making inputs, one should strive to make positive inputs.

It is rather unfortunate that the hon member, Mr Meer, brought in certain negative aspects, which I believe are not factually true.

AN HON MEMBER:  Absolutely not.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, it would help tremendously if these interjections from certain quarters could be diminished.  Mr Speaker, the question of the continued existence of languages, he tried to insinuate that under the previous dispensation, if that had continued, the various indigenous languages, and for that matter the languages that are mentioned in the Constitution but are not recognised as official languages, might not have continued to exist.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR V A VOLKER:  That is fundamentally incorrect.  It is fundamentally incorrect, because it had been the attitude all along that there should be a positive promotion of the various cultures, and the principle of mother tongue education was not limited only to, for that matter, the Afrikaans cultural groups.  It was considered as of vital importance to all population groups.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, will the hon member take a question where I would correct his statement.  The National Party opposed...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  No, no, no, Mr Rajbansi, you take your seat, you have made your point, over and out.  Is the member prepared to take a question?

MR V A VOLKER:  This is not the time to cross swords with the hon member Mr Rajbansi.  I would dearly love to do so at another stage, but it will waste valuable time.

Mr Speaker, the hon Mr Meer quoted from an attitude written by Mr Albie Sachs, Judge Albie Sachs now, that Christianity became a religion of oppression.  That might have been included in the writings of Judge Albie Sachs.  The situation is that no single religion is a religion of oppression, but religious fundamentalism of whatever religion, can become a religion of oppression, be it Christianity as in Northern Ireland, or be it Judaism as in Israel, or be it Islamic fundamentalism, as in many countries.  All religions that resort to fundamentalism by a section of their community, not by the religion itself, but by a section of the community, can contribute to a religion of oppression, and the attitude, espoused by the hon Mr Meer, tried to create the impression that Christianity was, or became, or could be conveyed as a religion of oppression.  He did not refer to the other religions of oppression of which there are many examples in the world as well.

AN HON MEMBER:  South Africa.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, the situation that we have on the need for nation-building, in a nation of diverse peoples, of diverse structures, of diverse cultures, we must recognise that neither a language, nor a culture, nor ethnic belonging, is a unifying factor.  A language can also, within its own language component, be very divisive.  Not the language as such, but the people of that language, can be divisive.

AN HON MEMBER:  Like P W Botha.

MR V A VOLKER:  We have, for example, amongst the Afrikaans-speaking community, we have a movement right from the left of the Communist Party right to the far right of Eugene Terre Blanche and others, and that in itself is not a unifying factor.  A unifying factor can only be tolerance towards diversity and the recognition of diversity.  The recognition of diversity, not merely as co-existence, but also in acceptance of the value of the mosaic of diversity being blended into a common new unity that accepts and accommodates the total diversity.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is Marxism.

AN HON MEMBER:  I thought it was called Liberalism, but that is my view point.

MR V A VOLKER:  And we believe that in a country such as South Africa, with the tremendous diversity that we have, we need to develop that type of tolerance towards the diversity that there is, and acknowledge and accept the value of the diversity.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member has one more minute.

MR V A VOLKER:  There will be no unity if we do not accept that and if we do not subscribe to that.  With the restriction on time, I would like to say that one of the purposes mentioned is to recommend the establishment, or recognition, in accordance with national legislation of a cultural, or other council, or councils, of a community or communities in South Africa.  There are many different communities and I believe it is absolutely essential that the establishment of cultural or other communities, or other councils, that represents certain interests, should all be officially recognised.  Also, the hon Minister Narend Singh said there should be an adequate provision of equitable funding for the diversity of separate cultural councils, that can all contribute in guidelines and inputs to a single official statutory council that will represent the diversity, but the promotion of individual cultures and value systems should be given official recognition in the promotion of this tolerance on a multi-national basis.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon Mrs Mkhize to address the House for 10 minutes.

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip): 

AN HON MEMBER: 
MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip): 

MR B H CELE: [No, Sifiso is my friend]. 

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member has one more minute.

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, the matter of the protection of customs and religious rights and languages of communities is a very important matter.  What pleases me is that you have brought it here for us to talk about.

Firstly, I can say that there is no nation that can survive, be respected and develop if its customs are left aside.  I am talking as one from a nation that found itself with customs and religions that were disrespected during the oppression that we experienced, starting at the time when we were defeated in wars.

Mr Speaker, this religion alone, its introduction amongst us was as if our religions that were part of our customs and were part of ~Ubuntu~ to us, were a disgrace, reprehensible and sinful.  The manner in which the hon ~Inkosi~ is reminding me, there were those called blowing the gall.  Truly, those are our things from which we should not run away.

Religion came and caused us even to stop our ways of raising our youth.  There is also education that is part of the custom of behaviour.  Beyond that, you found religion that says we should altogether abandon that which is our backbone.  You hear that when you are religious, you cannot slaughter for your deceased ones.

As this thing continues and those religions that instruct that are multiplying, I am saying, Mr Speaker and the whole House, we will have to look carefully at that, because we cannot be a people if we are going to leave our things that are truly the things that are our life and our death.

Now this religion has not been brought in.  I am pleased that even in our religion where I am, they have considered and saw that sometimes people should be able to wear their traditional leather skirts and go to church and wear your traditional top knot hat, worn by women, and put on your traditional buttock covering skin, worn by men, and go to a religious service, because you are going to talk to God the Almighty, who created you naked, expecting that you will wear that which you believe you should wear when you go and worship Him.

I am talking about languages now, Mr Speaker.  Now, my God, since the advent of that which came from the West, we are now speaking a language foreign to us, but it is due to the way it was introduced, good people.  It was such that when you spoke in your home language, it was seen as a disgrace.  Sometimes when you listen to someone speak, you hear him including another language, so that it could be heard that he went to school, he is educated, knowing the word he is supposed to use, but he does not use it because he wants to use the borrowed language.

But my people, our thing is beautiful when it is complete.  It is as beautiful as ours.  Let us teach this, because we will find even our descendants have gone astray, misdirected by us, together with my brother, Mr Ndosi across there.

Now, even the food we eat, truly, the situation of being made to leave your customs, you even begin to see that it is better to fry and use oil and all these foreign oils.  These very things that will cause us all sorts of ailments.  There is our doctor over there, looking at me.  These things bring diseases.  He is worn out having to cure people.  There is no more money.  We used to eat traditional porridge, eat pumpkin porridge, bring in amadumbe.  People ate and they were healthy and their bodies were strong.  Oh, abandoning your own things, my brothers, let us return home.

I am talking just about respect.  While we include these things that people have rights, but let respect not cease, because respect is what we build, even these children of ours that we do not want to see doing wrong things.  Even child abusers are increasing in number.  Where is this coming from?  It is as if something has gone wrong with us.  We stopped teaching our children and then a sick generation was created.  Let us return to this matter, Speaker.  You did well by saying let us talk about this matter.

Even taking care of each other as families, it is necessary because it is part of the custom of ~Ubuntu~.  What I too had to do, when I married into the Mkhize family, I had to stay with my husband, stay with my children, and take care of certain orphans.  The number of diseases that kill parents and leave orphans have multiplied.  The custom of sharing and helping others, particularly your blood relatives, has to return.  It should not be such that you have everything and they do not have even a little bit.

My people, what becomes painful is that, as I have said before, when we abandon our things, we remain with difficulties.  I have talked about diseases.  I am also going to talk about the result of being made to abandon our customs, even those of taking care of our children, examining our girls, and we find ourselves rushing into very difficult things.

Now we have passed the Abortion Act.  This Act, when we examine it closely ...

Mr Speaker, let me abandon this matter, but it is indeed very difficult, because who will cleanse those children who have lost children through death?  Who calls back the dying children?  Now, how is the custom going to be performed?

Oh, my people, what is most difficult is that when we thought that now we had our black Government who would carry out our matters and customs properly, but we find even this Government wants to undermine them, because it is now fighting the House of Traditional Leaders.  It has even enacted laws that undermine ~Amakhosi~ who are the basis of carrying out and strengthening our customs.

In conclusion, Speaker, I am saying, let us properly return to our things, correct our things and be mindful that politics comes to an end, but the essence of who we are, has to remain.  The things we treasure should remain.  The basis of our customs should be respected.  Languages of communities should be respected.  The House of Traditional Leaders should be respected.  Let all religions be respected, except Satanism.  Thank you, Speaker.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Order, please!  It is now my pleasure to call upon the hon ~Inkosi~ Mlaba to address us for 10 minutes.  ~Inkosi~ Mlaba.

~INKOSI~ Z M MLABA:  

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, the Freedom Charter clearly states, under the heading that says: "All race groups in the whole country will have the same rights".  There are important sub-headings under this heading that I will mention:

1.	All people shall have equal rights to use their languages and to build and strengthen their customs.

2.	All race groups will be protected by the law if their nationality is insulted or being destroyed.

It also states that those who boast of nationalism and race unnecessarily, shall be charged with an offence.

The presence of this Commission means the building of the country.  All race groups of this country will now be able to have an assurance that nationality, practices, customs and religions, will be protected, only if they build the country as the Freedom Charter states.

The Creator, who created us, Speaker, distinguished us in our nationalities by language, customs, religion, but all this varied creation should not be used to make the country ungovernable and undevelopable and for people to put nationalism first, without looking at those important matters that build nations.

This Commission, we hope, will fight the misuse of customs and nationalism in politics.  This ugly thing of misusing customs, nationalism and language, where it is unnecessary, does not build the country, it destroys it.

We always charge Shepstone's Government with an offence for using nature in this country and organising this country according to the way we were created.  The National Government made a big mistake of separating people according to the way they were created, according to race, language and by building Bantustans which caused this country to lag behind a lot.  The Bantustans I am talking about, its aim was just a plot to govern this country with racism, which we all know.

Our Government of everyone in this country has a very difficult task of correcting the damage caused by the misuse of our culture in our lives.  No one can deny today, Mr Speaker, that the National Government is the one that caused the people of this country to end up fighting one another, according to race, if they do not see eye to eye in the struggle then they call it a black on black battle.

The way culture was used, it almost dragged this country into a civil war.  There are many corpses that resulted because of the inclusion of nationalism in the struggle.  We saw that battle caused by boasting of nationalism taking place over there in Johannesburg and the outskirts, where different races were fighting.  We have problems in rural areas, Mr Speaker, where there are still disputes caused by the misuse of differences in beliefs, where it ends up in battles that leave people dead.

This Commission that will be established, Mr Speaker, will have a very important and difficult task of trying to correct mistakes caused by separation according to race, language, customs and religion.  We believe that it can work to prevent all things that are unjust, that are being used with bad intentions, killing this country.

We encourage that the people of this country, Mr Speaker, as they are encouraged by Section 185 and 186 of this country's Constitution, where it clearly states that peace, friendship, humanity, ~Ubuntu~, tolerance and unity should be encouraged and established.

Events planned by various race groups in this country should take place so that the essence of who we are should be preserved.  It will bring together people in harmony, so that at the end there is eternal peace, so that the voice of the majority - democracy, can take its place.

Mr Speaker, we wish that this Commission can be established quickly because there are many problems we will face as many political matters are unnecessarily involved.  People end up fighting unnecessarily.  As we see, fighting and violence is resurfacing.  It is good to quickly protect this thing relating to customs, so that we know in which way they are being used.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  May I take this opportunity to announce that there are some of the members who did not have their photographs taken the last time we were here.  The photographers are outside to give that opportunity to those who did not have their photos taken.  I have been informed that there are not very many members here, a few were left and therefore they are at liberty to leave through that door.  The photographer is outside waiting for them.

We will therefore proceed.  I will call upon Mr Mackenzie.  Mr Mackenzie to address us for 10 minutes.

MR M M MACKENZIE: TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, Madlule, Nyanda yePhahla and all the hon members across and on this side, but particularly the one who has recently arrived.  I welcome you, my brother.  [LAUGHTER]  T/E

I believe that this is an extremely important debate that we have embarked on, mainly because ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!

MR M M MACKENZIE: [I am being bothered by those who are laughing and carrying on over there, such as Sidudla and others].  That we can try and establish a valuable link between all our different cultures, through a very, very simple medium, and that is language.  We are now able to exchange language.  I am fortunate in that I was raised by MaMhlongo, but there are others in this House who are more fortunate than I am in that they can command four languages, such as the hon Volker and the hon Konigkramer.  However, unless we use language, and unless we interchange with people, unless we ask their advice, unless we can laugh at them and laugh at ourselves, we will remain on separate paths and if we remain on separate paths, a united new South Africa will be even more difficult to achieve.

I am reminded at this time of laughter, of being able to laugh at each other.  There is a story I wish to tell of an imported priest who came to do a locum here and he knew no Zulu whatsoever.  He arrived very late for a service and he rushed in and he said, "I would like you please to - indeed, I am terribly sorry, please apologise for me, indeed, indeed I am sorry, indeed I am sorry", and the bored interpreter who had been waiting in the hot, hot room said, [The minister says he had a problem with the rectum].  [LAUGHTER]  That I will leave to the interpreter to tell you what that means.

However, we must now look at what is not happening ...

HON MEMBERS: [That is vulgar].

MR M M MACKENZIE:  If you would like me to withdraw it, with pleasure.  What is not withdrawn [I withdraw, my sister].  What is not happening at the moment is that we are not talking to each other.  We are talking past each other.  We are allowing English as a language to completely dominate all other languages, and what follows a language, is the customs that go with it.  I am from Scotch descent and I wear a kilt, because I remember where I came from.  But even the English tried to take that away from us when they [when they walked on tip-toes] up with us in 1600, during the Battle of Culloden.  However, they exported a lot of Scotchmen to a lot of places and we hope that we had been able to aid in the general wellbeing of the countries that we have moved to.

What we are doing - it has not got Nomcedo either - what we are doing is, we are trying to learn why there is an objection to our behaviour.  Why it is that a certain person will speak that way, or react that way.  We are not asking enough questions as to why is it necessary to have a Buyisa Ceremony.  Why is it necessary to [the ceremony to return the deceased, the washing of hands].  Why is it necessary for someone to adorn themselves with ashes, and until we know the reasons why this is happening, we will be going along on separate paths.  And I do believe that it is essential, [What are you saying, sir]?

AN HON MEMBER: [We remember them].

THE SPEAKER:  There is a discussion between the one addressing the Chair and another member from the floor.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  You are quite right, Mr Speaker.  To try and carry on after that very pleasant interruption, I might say, because he was quite correct, Mr Speaker, is to say that until such time as we get our children learning each other's languages in schools, and the establishment of the councils that were mentioned by the hon Volker, I believe that we will continue on separate paths.  Therefore, this Commission is vital, but it must be well peopled from a broad spectrum of all interested parties with their different cultures, in order that we can enrich this country that we live in.  I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Mackenzie.  It is now my pleasure to call upon Mr Burrows, an Englishman of mean descent as against the Scotchman of mean descent.  Mr Burrows, for seven minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, my shoulders are not so broad as to be able to bear the weight of all the slings and arrows that are thrown at English-speaking persons, but I think I must start out by noting - and I do it in the light of what Mr Meer had to say -that during the 19th Century, and for much of this Century, there has been an arrogance and a paternalism from English-speaking persons concerning their role and status of their language and their customs and their mores, that made everybody who is not English-speaking, or born in English, Mr Mackenzie, a foreigner.  You are all foreigners, except those who were of English born.  And that was true wherever they went in the world.

AN HON MEMBER:  You are quite right.

MR R M BURROWS:  And when they came to a country like South Africa, there was an arrogance towards others, and it mattered not whether they were dark-skinned, or whether they spoke another language, they were foreigners.  And this led, sir, and has led in the past, to wars.  The classic Anglo Boer War is an example, and the behaviour of English-speaking persons at that time was totally unacceptable.  It was unacceptable during the 19th Century in the Shepstone proclamations that occurred here in KwaZulu-Natal.  It was during much of this Century the behaviour of the English-speaking persons, that one must recognise and also must be condemned.

But sir, we must look forward, and with the poet, Gerard Manley Hopkins, we must say: "Glory be to God for dappled things".  For things that are not the same, for things that are diverse, glory be to God.  That there is an advantage in having more than one view of things.  That there is a diverse multi-cultural facetted world that we are living in this country, that we must recognise, is to our very great advantage.  That as individuals, sir, through our customs, our religions and our languages, we cut across the lines.

I and my colleague Nel, do not have our religious denomination in common, we do not have a language in common, and yet, the leader of the PAC in South Africa who was the presiding bishop of the Methodist Church and I have a religion in common, and so where there are cross-cutting lines we recognise.  There are people in this House, sir, who have more in common, even though their language may be different from mine, but they have customs that may be in common with mine.  We must look at those cross-cultural ties as well, as those that we look at individually.

We have within the Constitution, a clear spelling out of the 11 languages, and there is no need for me to go through them, sir, but also a recognition within the Constitution in Section 8 that the Khoi, Nama and San language, sign language, languages of the religious communities, also German, Greek, Gujarathi, Hindi, Portuguese, Tamil, Telegu, Urdu, Arabic, Hebrew, Sanskrit and other languages, need to be promoted and protected in this country, sir, and we must do that.  What we must not do, sir, is believe that there should only be one common language used in this country.


Let me turn, sir, to an abnormal document that was published in December last year.  It is the Language in Education Policy Norms and Standards, spelt out by the Department of National Education.  Here in this document, it actually makes multi-culturalism the policy in our schools.  That is what we have got to strive for.  Let me quote:

	The new language in education policy is conceived of as an integral and necessary aspect of the new government strategy of building a non-racial nation in South Africa.  It is meant to facilitate communication across the barriers of colour, language and region while at the same time creating an environment in which respect for languages other than one's own would be encouraged.

And sir, it carries on:

	The right to choose the language of learning and teaching is vested in the individual.  This right has, however, to be exercised within an overall framework of the obligation on the education system to promote multilinguilism.

Mr Speaker, all of us, every single individual, is different from every other single individual, and whether we worship in cathedrals, in churches, in mosques, in temples, in synagogues, in assembly rooms, or in, [prayer] it does not matter, we have a common religious belief that must be respected, whatever the religion may be, or of no religion whatsoever, sir.  Within those cultural norms and traditions, we have to give premise to the basic values of the individual and individual choice.  Every individual has the right to choose, but all of us grow up and are born into communities, and it is those communities that carry our spirit forward.

I do not go along with the hon Mr Volker on separate cultural councils.  I concede that there needs to be a Commission that looks into the broader aspect of defending the rights of all, and that should be fully and absolutely representative.  Cultural councils per se have been the subject of some debate previously and there are different political views, I do not want to go into them today.  What we need to accept, sir, at the outset, is that the Commission's role has to be one of developing and promoting the rights of the individual spelt out in the Constitution and to that end, the Democratic Party would support it.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  I will now call upon the hon Mrs A Mchunu to address the House for 10 minutes.

MRS A MCHUNU: 

HON MEMBERS: [Which ones]?

MRS A MCHUNU: THE SPEAKER:  The hon member has one more minute.

MRS A MCHUNU: TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker and your House, it will be very pleasing for us to meet and build each other as people, because if we are going to talk about building a country, we have to look at ourselves first and see if we have it in us to be an example to people, for us to speak about this thing.

If we talk about building a country, we will have to just look at a child having been born and raised with love, which makes a child grow up in a decent home with parents who love the child and are decent.  Today we are saying the country is ungovernable, because there are children walking the streets.  There are children who are now murderers.  When you trace that child, one finds that no one knows where that child comes from.  To have children who are not properly born out of a home is what will cause us to have a country that cannot be properly built.

If a country is going to be built with love, it means there should be proper education of raising children at home.  Let us return to what was good in our customs.  Everyone here had something concrete for raising a child.  We are not saying that children do not have rights.  We, according to Zulu custom, a child has rights already at birth.  When a child was born, he would be praised with his family name, kissed and grandmothers would burn incense for it and present it to the departed.

Mr Speaker and your House, if we as parents, do not remember that our children have to be raised with respect, just waking up in the morning at 8:00 and driving to work and to Parliament, and then things go wrong behind us, we would be complaining, saying this country which we say we are governing, is not being properly governed.

We have a big corrective task, because during the time when things were wrong and we were crying and howling in the wilderness and not being properly taken care of, it was at that time when our children took example from us, that there was something amiss in the country.  They too started empathising with us and we ended up praising children for performing better than us adults.

Children are the ones reclaiming the country, yet, a child has his place and adults also have their place.  We have to know that here at home, when we are going to raise children, everyone has his place, the father has his place, he is the head of the household.  The father should be as straight as an arrow.  You cannot be in charge of a family that will be part of building a country and be the very one who returns at 11:00 at night, not knowing who returned your cattle, not knowing where your children are, whether your children are in bed, sleeping, or whether they are in the hands of evil, smoking dagga and drinking alcohol.  By sunset the father should be back home and seeing what goes on.

The mother should be given her place.  The mother is the one who ensures that the constitution of the home is properly implemented.  If you want to see whether the law is enforced at home, the mother should be given her place of leading at home.  We are not in competition with the father.  We are not in competition with anybody else, but the truth is that the mother should see that the constitution of the home is properly carried out.

No, we cannot talk about irresponsible people and say what happens while we are here.  If you have implemented a law, it works even at a time when you are not at home.  Therefore, we cannot discuss the issue of people who have left their homes and taken up other things.  When the mother is at home, respectful, the father respecting his children and raising them here at home, children take example from him that there is respect in this home.

Today we have children who call their fathers by their first names, or even say, "Father?  Who on earth is father?  A drunkard?  Because a child takes it from the way the mother speaks.

My people, we need respect if we want to build this country.  We are not begging anyone here in Africa, because we know that God did not make a mistake by placing us in Africa.  We have our own procedure which we are supposed to stand for.  I do not know what it is that makes us shy about what we have and to copy from other people.  Yes, we acknowledge that when we are together in a place, we learn from other nationalities, that is nice, and discard some of the things we see as not developing us.  But we should stop being shy about what we have and keep borrowing things which origins we do not know.

The building of a family that has respect and whose members respect each other, would be the foundation in a community with respect and love.  It has never really happened in a decent community that a neighbour's child is killed, or the father of a child, or the house burnt down by neighbours, because if there is a neighbour who is crying, all in the community goes out to see what has happened - have criminals invaded their community?

Let us go back home and preach about this issue.  This Commission being established, must see to it that ~Ubuntu~, humanity, is returned to the homes and families, so that they can love each other and do everything with respect and love for one another.  The country which consists of these communities and these homes, requires leaders.  Leaders who are an example, leaders from whom people can take an example, because a leader expresses what he does even before he opens his mouth.  As he appears, you hear people saying: "There is so-and-so", or "This so-and-so and such", before he opens his mouth.

Therefore, in this country of ours, let us write about this Commission, but what is written down on paper does not mean much to uneducated people, but people such as the Zulu people look at you, your footsteps, how they move.  You say you are progressing, yet your feet go in the opposite direction.  Why?  Or are they moving as slow as a crab.  People sometimes follow leaders.  When they move forward they move like crabs.  Let us be leaders, who will make this country better, so that it can be properly governed.  So that the laws we enact and even the Constitution we wrote, can be something, if we ourselves are examples.

The Constitution means nothing if it is not going to be used, because it is just something written in a book, something you can throw into the fire to be burnt.  But a constitution within people, in their hearts, can not be erased, because you see the law over there as a person walks.  Let us write open and legible books.  The Commission we are proposing will work if we become open books.

We are saying, my dear friends, all the hon members here in the House, Mr Speaker, all the comrades present here in KwaZulu-Natal, we have various levels of leaders and we respect all of them, but there is this grain of disrespect that we see presently.  We know that it emanates through laws that came from other areas.

Let me apologise, these disrespect our ~Ubuntu~.  You see, this element of disrespecting oneself, sometimes, after some time, people look closely at you and say: "Oh, are we following the right path, if we follow someone who disrespects himself".  ~Ubukhosi~ is ours.  If you disrespect it, you disrespect it because you disrespect yourself as a person.  Therefore, one day we should not complain when we have gone and left our followers behind and they question themselves and realise that they are going astray, that this wagon they are on is not going the proper way.

Therefore, the existing country we are saying should be built has various levels.  There is a country which has parts in urban areas under the leadership of mayors.  There are areas under the leadership of ~Amakhosi~, which requires its own respect.  It should not be said that the areas of ~Amakhosi~ should have strange names because I say a person who calls areas of ~Amakhosi~ strange names, has himself a personal problem.

That person himself has a problem.  He needs to go somewhere for inspection and fixing.  Maybe he should go to those who read the mind, we call psychologists, so they can show you that you have experienced too much discrimination, that you are now discriminating against yourself.  Return home, there are homes in the areas of ~Amakhosi~.  Mr Speaker and your House, I am pleased.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  I want to take this opportunity to say that today is indeed a strange day.  It was Caesar who spoke about Africa and he said: "Ex-Africa semper aliquite novus".  And I see it happening here, this day, for indeed, new languages are coming up in this Legislature, which never before came up.  Indeed, Ex-Africa semper aliquite novus.

It is now my pleasure to call upon Raj Morar for 10 minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR R MORAR:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, hon members.  Today is indeed a turning point in my career, as not only do I have the opportunity to address this House for the first time, and not only will I be able to serve the people of KwaZulu-Natal, but I will be able to serve my home base of Chatsworth, as a member of Parliament.

Mr Speaker, I now refer to the debate before us, Nation-building and the rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities.

The idea to establish a Cultural Commission is a good one, however, it must not be a top-down approach, but rather to include a member of every cultural group in order to accommodate and protect their cultural interests.

One should refer to the 1980's where extensive debates on this issue were held as an alternative to ~Apartheid~.  This focused on a multi-racial government, modelled around a multi-party coalition, to prevent a possible explosion on cultural demands.  Because of the rich variety of cultural and language groups in South Africa, this debate was necessary.

Unfortunately, Mr Speaker, when one talks of cultural rights today, they are quite often labelled as racists.

National unity can only be achieved when one's cultural and religious rights are accommodated to its fullest.  An opinion survey conducted amongst the majority of South Africans, revealed that unity can only be achieved if based on cultural and language interests.

There are a number of communities in South Africa that have already indicated their willingness to participate in such a Commission.  A few such councils are already in existence.  Certain Indian cultural and religious communities, for example, would like their marriage by cultural rites recognised.  This Commission, however, can only be of substance, if real power is attached to it and it is not a toothless advisory body.

It is our belief, Mr Speaker, that when the cultural rights of minorities are ignored, nation-building is impossible.

Of the nine provinces, Mr Speaker, KwaZulu-Natal leads with the best representation of political mix that make up this nation.  It is also home to the largest single black nation, the Zulu.

As a city, Cape Town is the biggest tourist attraction, but as a province, KwaZulu-Natal is the largest.  All this is made possible, Mr Speaker, because of our vast mix of culture.

We therefore appeal to the Government to ensure the Commission helps facilitate the establishment of cultural and religious councils where such affected communities require it.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear! 

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Could I help the Speaker by saying that his microphone was not on.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you for letting me know that.  I was apparently talking to myself and not to you.  [LAUGHTER]  It is now my pleasure to call upon the hon Mr Mkhwanazi to address the House for five minutes.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  First of all I want to congratulate my neighbour here, the hon Mr Morar, on his maiden speech, although I do not know why it is called a maiden speech, because it should have been a gentleman's speech.  Thank you very much for your wonderful speech and we hope we will work together as close neighbours.

Mr Speaker, the PAC believes in one race, the human race.  Hence, in the PAC terminology we do not use races, we say there is one race, the human race.  Mr Speaker, we regard all the people in Africa and the people in this House as Africans.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Because we believe all those who owe their only allegiance to Africa are Africans, except those who do not want to owe their allegiance to this beautiful continent.  We really support the formation, or the establishment of this Commission.  It is very, very important, because it will encourage and promote the multi-cultures of this country, especially of this Province where we have so many diverse cultures.  

I do not agree with my colleague, the hon Volker, that there should be different, separate, small commissions at first.  I think the Commission should be composed of people from different cultural backgrounds, and then we will have solved the problem which I think my colleague, the hon Volker is concerned about.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Somewhere it is written that "A nation without culture is no nation.  It is a dead nation".  That is why the invaders of Africa, or of this country of ours, as soon as they landed, they crushed the culture of the people. That is why our people's culture was crushed. [That is why these women are saying there are people who are even scared to speak their language, who are scared to even wear their traditional outfits.  Others, like the Sothos, wear loin skin, that goes between the legs, others are even scared to wear saris].  I am impressed by our National Madam Speaker in Parliament, because she always wears a sari.  I respect her, because even perhaps against the feelings of her colleagues, she keeps her own culture.

I am proud to inform this House that on Saturday I was one of the people who witnessed and supported the graduation of Doctor Sosobala Mbatha, when he was given a doctorate by the All African Cultural Organisation.  I was there, dressed in Zulu regalia.  Many people are afraid, some of the people, important people who were invited ran away because they did not want to be associated with [traditional leaders].  This shows how much our people are crushed.. [Therefore, Mr Speaker...]

THE SPEAKER: [There is just one minute, sir, before you conclude].

MR J D MKHWANAZI: TRANSLATION:  I encourage and support this Commission.  It is saddening that parents of some Africans here never taught Zulu or Sotho where they live, except Mr Meer.  It is a disgrace that sometimes I see others feeling bad and then saying: "Oh, I blame my parents".  Indeed, it was a mistake that children born in this country were not taught to speak a language spoken in this country.  I thank you.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  We will proceed.  I will call upon the hon Mrs J M Downs for five minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, if I could add my congratulations and welcome to our newest member, the hon Mr Morar, and congratulate him on his maiden speech.

Mr Speaker, I am going to concentrate on the religious aspects of the matter, because I only have a short time.  I would love to have spoken on the cultural and linguistic community side as well, but I need to be faithful to the people who put me here in Parliament.  I have a very great role in mind for the promotion of this Religious and Linguistic Communities Commission.

I do not envisage an airy-fairy role for this Commission, and I have a great fear in this country that freedom of religion in South Africa has been translated to freedom from religion and is being practised as such in this country.  I do not think - this is a highly religious country, in all senses, and I do not think that we are doing ourselves a favour by doing that.

Let me give you a very practical example so that you can understand the ideas that I have for this Commission.  A very practical example is in the new Broadcast Policy for South Africa.  In the White Paper that has been put before National Parliament, there has always been a place for community radio stations, and some of those community radio stations have been religious, or cultural, or linguistic in nature.  Christian radio stations, Indian radio stations, Islamic radio stations, and so on.  What is happening with the new Broadcast Policy is that there is a promotion for these radio stations to only be geographic communities and not communities of interest and the effect that this will have, if that is put into place, is that it will shut down religious, linguistic community radio stations, which means - and particularly for the people who put me here - which means no more Christian radio stations, and we take that very seriously.

There is a great place in the society for different things to be aired, and we need to find some way of addressing this.  So if this Commission can look at things like this type of legislation, which is going to have an effect on these communities, and it is not only the Christian communities that this is going to have an effect on.  Radio Lotus, for example, could be affected.  Highway Radio, Radio KwaSizabantu and other radio stations that only cater for one particular aspect will not be allowed, because in the new White Paper it says that they must cater for the whole geographic community.

This type of legislation, if it is looked into by this Commission, and commented upon, it will help, I think, for us to understand that this type of legislation can actually hurt our multi-culturalism.  In the same way that the Gender Commission looks into all legislation to find out if it is gender-sensitive and that it does not actually abrogate the rights of women, or other gender, whatever they want to call it.  In the same way, if this Commission looks at legislation and it looks at the religious rights, the linguistic rights and the cultural rights that may, or may not be affected by legislation, then I think it has got a good chance of succeeding and I think that it will be a worthwhile and very helpful Commission.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  You had one more minute.  I thank you for that.  Now I will call upon the Raj for five minutes, the hon Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I want to congratulate my colleague from Chatsworth, the hon Raj Morar, on being declared a member of this Legislature, and also the return of Mr Walter Felgate.  Mr Felgate's entry into the Legislature again reminds me of a very great parliamentarian, Mr Marais Steyn, who delivered, as a member of the United Party, the most vicious attacks on the National Party ever made.  He went to the extent of saying, "This was the worst Government God ever created on earth".  But when he crossed the floor to the National Party, a circular was sent to all the members and he put together all his experience and said, "During those years, sitting on the UP benches, I now realise that I was a big fool".  I will not say more.

Mr Speaker, there are two elder statesmen in our country today.  One is our State President, who I think, after his release, made the mission statement for the foundation and the infra-structure of this country in an exclusive interview given to a great journalist, called Sir Stanley Hughes, and in that, he gave recognition to the diversity of the South African Nation and said that this diversity is going to play a role for a long time in shaping the future destiny of our beloved country.

Then, repeatedly on the other side, the hon leader of the IFP, Doctor Mangosuthu Buthelezi, lays his mission statement, the foundation also, where they find common cause in different political parties, referring to the same thing as cultural pluralism.  I remember on one occasion when he delivered a speech at one of the KwaZulu prayer breakfasts, he said South Africa is like a carpet where you can see the religion and the cultures of the entire universe in a unique situation, in a unique country.

Now taking these two utterances right to the apex we have in our Constitution, a great part in our Constitution, the Preamble, the following words:  "That there shall be skilful management of historically founded perceptions regarding different communities".  And our Constitution, in the Preamble, says:

	Believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity.  

United in our diversity.

At the world forum there has been a debate about minorities.  How do you define minorities?  Last night, at the closing celebration of India's 50th Anniversary where our hon Premier and our hon Minister of Transport delivered some eloquent speeches, Mr Patrick Ngogo, a Zulu, recognised and revered internationally with India, gave us some of the finest singing in Indian classical language.

But let us examine what we are about to discuss and look at the enabling provision in the Constitution.  It says that according to 185 (1) of the Constitution, dealing with this Commission is to promote respect.  We are not only going to promote languages, and culture and religion, we must promote respect and understanding and tolerance.  We have had a lot of intolerance in this country.  I do not want to enter into a political slinging match ...

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Raj has two more minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  But, Mr Speaker, I want to say that no Government in this country has seen to the promotion and the teaching of Indian languages in the schools until now.  Indian languages were introduced in the former House of Delegate schools in January 1986 on the specific instructions from the person who is speaking in this Chamber, against tremendous odds, against threats that those who are planted in our Administration will see to it that Indian languages will not be promoted.

But we must not only concentrate on Indian languages.  We have Greeks, we have Portuguese, we have Germans, we are very rich in culture and tradition.  Mr Speaker, I want to make an appeal, and I think some colleagues of mine were looking at a call for some provisional structure negatively.  We have copied national initiatives into our Province.  There is a need, Mr Speaker, for some provincial initiatives and local initiatives.  Not around language, giving each separate language the structure.  

THE SPEAKER:  One minute for the Raj.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I made an appeal before 1994, for the recognition of our marriages according to Indian culture.  It was refused.  I think today we must thank the IFP, we must thank the African National Congress.  I know one political party did not want Indian languages to be mentioned and it came from none other than President Nelson Mandela himself, who said, "I want these languages mentioned in the Constitution".  Today I want to pay tribute to the PAC, CODESA and to President Nelson Mandela personally, for giving us the policy direction for the promotion of languages and for the debate we are having today.

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon the hon member to take his seat.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon Minister S Ndebele, who will address us for 24 minutes.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  I thank you, Mr Speaker.  Let me also welcome the two new members, Mr Raj Morar and Comrade Walter Felgate.  This is a very useful debate because if we do not establish this Commission, we will be in danger of forgetting where we come from and what country it is, and what society it is that we want to create in this part of Africa.  The people of this country have suffered under oppression, racial oppression for a very, very long time.  They have been oppressed for the longest on the whole continent, perhaps excluding the Portuguese territories, such that we have developed a clear understanding of what racism is.

In the understanding of the ANC, and it is now the understanding of the country, that we have three types of racism.  There is what we call overt racism.  Overt racism is the racism that we have just emerged from.  Open racism, like ~Apartheid~, like Nazism and like Fascism.  It is not disguised, it is open, like of you are not German, you are going to be oppressed if you are not white, you are black, you are going to be oppressed.  It is contained in the laws in the Constitution of the country, it is open.  We said we would fight that and we fought it.

But our understanding of racism was not just that, it went further than that.  We said we also understood what is called covert racism.  Covert racism will be the type of racism that you find in Britain, in the United States, which is not on their statute books, not in the laws of their country, but it is there all the same.  When you apply for a job or apply for a flat they will say the vacancy has been filled, if they hear that you are black.  If a white person applies after you have they will get it.  That is covert racism.  And we said we are going to fight that as well.

There is also the third type of racism, that is called reactive racism.  Reactive racism is the racism of the former, or previous victims of racism, who then practice racism themselves.  Sometimes they call it reversed racism.  One unfortunately finds that amongst the people who have suffered under racism, like the Jews in Israel, they do not hesitate to practise exactly that same racism against the Palestinians, and that is what we call reactive racism.  Racism of people who have suffered under racism themselves.

We have now laid the basis in order to move forward and create a non-racial, non-sexist democratic South Africa.  To have fought this struggle but it was not easy.  During the struggle we, for instance enacted these words in the Freedom Charter, that said "We, the people of South Africa, declare for all the world to know that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white".  There was quite a lot of friction between us, within the Liberation Movement, that how could we say that, how should we say that the oppressors are also part of this country and this country belongs to them.  But we started it and today it is a truism.

Even when we started SASO, the first black consciousness movement here, we said South Africa is a country where black and white live together, and shall continue to live together and it was again that affirmation.  We also spoke of a special kind of Colonialism.  By that we meant that the coloniser and the colonised live in one country, there is no ocean dividing them.  Therefore we needed to start and create a foundation, which will ensure that we would be able to live under conditions of equality.

Because of ~Apartheid~ on the one hand, and the high degree of interaction between the national groups on the other, the oppressed nationalities did not raise, and never raised the demands of succession, or cultural autonomy, or self determination, like has happened in Algeria, Zambia and so forth.  On the contrary, our demand has always been that of equality, and we said all of us are one people.  It was the ~Apartheid~ regime itself that said yes, there are whites in South Africa, yes, there are Indians, there are coloureds, but there are no Africans.  It said, instead of Africans there are Zulus, Xhosas, Vendas, Tswanas and so forth, and that is what we fought against.  The demand for equality has finally now triumphed.

As far as the Indian community was concerned, the ~Apartheid~ regime, of course, and with the United Party regime before it, said that the Indian people should in fact leave the country now, there was no further use for them.  They actually had a programme of repatriation and said that the ships were ready in Durban to leave for Bombay.  We fought against that.  But we also fought, we inculcated amongst our Indian compatriots, together with the leadership of India, particularly Nehru, who said the fate of the Indian people in South Africa does not lie in India, it lies with the majority of the oppressed people in South Africa, and therefore they should make common cause with the oppressed people.  Not as an appendage of the whites, like in the tri-cameral, not as a minority whose champion now is supposed to be the National Party, but they must see themselves as part of the majority.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  I want also to address what concerns more than 80% of the population of this Province, particularly pertaining to the Zulu culture.  It is a truism, and it is important to mention that the Zulu people have not fought African non-Zulu people since the days of King Shaka, a bit of Sigonyela during King Dingane but there has never been a fight between the Zulu people and other African people in this Province, except during that period of nation-building led by His Majesty, King Shaka.

We have not been in control of our own cultural instruments and because we have not been in control of those cultural instruments, the main cultural instrument of course being language, schools and so forth, and these were under the control of the oppressor.  Therefore, those negative elements of our culture - and every culture has got positive and negative elements - those were the ones that were always emphasised.

Indeed, even today when we talk about language, the main instrument of that, for instance, is the press, the media, which we totally do not control.  It is controlled by people who are hostile towards the development of a positive culture.  The radio, indeed, the people who are in charge of the SABC in KwaZulu-Natal, whether TV or radio, all of them cannot understand the language that is spoken by 85% of this Province.  It is an issue that we must address.  It is therefore very important for us, to look at those positive aspects and reclaim our culture from that and promote it, emphasise it, as important aspects of our culture that must be preserved and developed.

To do that, let us start with the founder of the Zulu Nation, King Shaka.  One of the most outstanding features, characteristics, that he displayed was that of judging people according to the contribution that they made and not according to who their father was, who was this and so forth.  He was able to develop very strong people, because he did not say he was going to confine himself only to the small Zulu clan of the 1800's at the time.  He was able to develop, whether a person came from Lesotho or wherever, they became part of this, and that is why it became so strong.  Therefore he was not a tribalist he was a nation-builder.

He was also not afraid of new ideas, learning new skills for development and defence.  That is why we had the beginning of the science of metallurgy for instance around Ngoye where people made steel, etcetera.  One Sibiya was sent abroad, they said he was being sent to England but he ended up in Cape Town to learn new skills, so that he was not afraid of that.  But he also had the tradition of opening up.  You do not just stay eMakhosini there, he moved to KwaBulawayo round there Nkwalini.  But he said no, you cannot run a big place like this, staying there, move to  KwaDakuza.  He said, no, no, the capital of the Zulu Kingdom cannot only be KwaDakuza, let us move right into Durban, and that is where the capital was, and that was the open person from where he could direct movements right to the Eastern Cape, or Lesotho and all those people.  You cannot confine yourself to some small place out there, perhaps even ~Ulundi~.  [LAUGHTER]  That is why he could interact with the rest of the world.

He also had a very strong tradition of not allowing [spies, stooges] to come and divide people and say the sangoma will come and say, "So-and-so is talking bad about you the king".  He said, "No, I do not allow that".  That is why he rooted out those zangomas that were dividing the people.  There was also a tradition during Shaka's time.  The tradition of [tradition that originates from our area].  Where you can stand up to the king himself, King Shaka, and say, "King, we are wrong".  So this thing of saying that there was somebody that was above criticism is un-Zulu, it is not part of our culture. that you say no, you are wrong, now you are destroying the nation, do not do this.  We have few men of courage nowadays.

Then, of course, when you go further, you have the tradition of [where women dared to choose their lovers], during the time of King Cetshwayo.  We need to build a monument to that [rock], these pioneers of gender equality, they paid with their lives.  They were killed by their fathers.  They were killed by their brothers, because they said: "I will not marry a person I do not love".  They stood up for their rights, for their individual rights as women, and today we take that for granted and it is now in our Constitution, but that ingcuce was able to do that, they dared to choose their lovers.

We also see further the tradition of King Dinizulu, who said yes, we have now created this Zulu Nation.  Let us hold hands now with the Sikhukhune with the Msheshwes and build an African nation now in South Africa.  Of course he could only do that correctly within the African National Congress, that is why he became the first hon President of the ANC.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  But you also had the other tradition of standing up for your rights during this period.  I am a Lutheran and I am proud, when I drive from Eshowe, before you reach Nkwalini, if you look on your right there, you see that statue, that statue of Maqhamsela, Maqhamsela umfoka Khanyile.  He stood up when it was difficult to be a Christian.  People said asikhonze [we should worship our ancestors].  He said: "No, I have now chosen Christ, I am standing up".  He paid with his life.  That is a tradition of this Province which we must now promote.

We now have Section 15 of the Bill of Rights that says everyone has the right to freedom of conscience, of religion, of thought, of belief and opinion.  The pioneers of this were aboMaqhamsela who said, "Yes, I am now a Christian and I have got a right to be, just like somebody else has got the right to be something else".  And he was of course killed.

Today, we are very proud in this House.  Two years ago you would have thought it was unthinkable that somebody could move from that side of the House to this side of the House.  We now pay tribute and welcome to Parliament, Mr Felgate.  That is the tradition of Maqhamsela of standing up for what you believe in.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Mr Zuma and myself and the other leaders have had so many problems before, when members from the National Party, when members from the IFP - and I can see at least four of them now - would say: "Look, we now want to cross to the ANC", we would say, we do not want to carry the risk and the guilt of your lives on our hands.  Stay there, just stay there.  Stay there.  But the bravery of Mr Felgate has opened a way to say, just like Maqhamsela, who stood up ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Who stood up, during that period, and he paid with his life.  Of course now - no, I do not believe you, Mr Ntombela, that you want to cross, no, no, no, I will not.  [LAUGHTER]  So it is this tradition that we must take to this Commission for the promotion of culture, tradition and the rights of the people and that is the tradition that we must carry forward.  We in this Province have such a rich tradition that we have emerged from.  It is going to be important, my hon colleague the Minister of Education, that these aspects of our culture that have been suppressed deliberately by Bantu Education, by radio, by the media, should now be promoted, because we have got this tradition.

Nobody talks about ingcuce, nobody talks about these things that I have been talking about.  All that is heard when you listen to Radio Ukhozi, at any time, 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock, the story that you will hear will be of a man beating a woman.  That is the tradition that is forever being promoted.  That is not our tradition, it was cowards, most despicable people who beat up women, for instance, in our culture, but today that is what is paraded.

So it is this tradition that we must now reclaim.  We, the ANC, have made it possible by putting forward this Commission, and it is supported by all of us here.  This Commission ensures that we guarantee that these rights are not there simply because Mandela is there, but they will remain there whether it is Thabo Mbeki, they will remain there whether it is Jacob Zuma, after him, and so forth, so that it does not depend on the good-heartedness of a Mandela, and this is what is going to be the lasting tribute of a democratic government in this country.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.
		
HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, you have just about two minutes left.  Finally, it is my pleasure to call upon the hon Minister, His Royal Highness, V T Zulu to address us for 10 minutes.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Speaker and the House thank you very much.  First of all I want to say we of the IFP very much support the formation of this Commission.  We actually feel the setting up of this Commission is belated and I have been sitting here listening to the hon members giving their inputs on the formation of this Commission.

When the hon Dr Meer was speaking, I was reminded of a situation during the 11th Century when Henry II was talking to some of his people and when Becket was about to speak, saying, "Sit down, listen to the droppings of one of the best brains of our times".  I looked at the old man and I thought about the fact that he is 79 years old and I was reminded that at that time, in parliaments and governments, people of that age were the ones that were addressing the parliaments, most of the time.  I also listened to the hon member, Mr Rajbansi, paying tribute to some of the best brains of our times, the hon President Mr Mandela and the hon Dr Buthelezi, President of the IFP.  I wondered and said to myself, if we had more of such people in our country, perhaps things would not be what they are at the present moment.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  I am not so sure.  He still has a long way to go, he should prove himself.

I listened to the hon Minister Ndebele as he was talking about standing up for what you believe in and I thought it was very true that people should do that.  Something came to my mind that in our Zulu culture, there is something that was once said by the hon Dr Buthelezi.  He said he grew up in the Royal family, Abantwana would fight and on fighting [Family members of the Royal House will fight.  When fighting, one of the members of the Royal House says: "Sir, you are disrespecting me, you are disrespecting me, you of the Isilo.  I will hit you, you descendant of ~Inkosi~"].  

So, what I am saying is that even under those circumstances, people still bring about that kind of culture, that respect, which is human, which is derived from ~Ubuntu~.  Even  [Even when condemning, you want to hit that person, but you do not].  You do not come down to a level, you do not degrade yourself and the person that you want to fight with. 

 [You, descendant of ~Inkosi~, you will be in conflict.  I will hit you, you of the Isilo.  Manzankosi, do not irritate me].  That is part of our culture as Zulus.

I want to refer to some of the aspects in the Constitution on this matter and as I said earlier on, we fully accept this.  The Constitution says everyone has the right to use the language and to participate in the cultural life of their choice, but no-one exercising these rights may do so in a manner inconsistent with any provision of the Bill of Rights.

I want to continue and say, the Bill of Rights provision in the Constitution is one of its fundamental tenants.  Of course my fear is that it is the most misunderstood tenant in our Constitution.  I want to believe that most people that understand the Bill of Rights are mainly the educated, and I have a feeling that there is very little that we have done, you know, to tutor our people on the Bill of Rights.  There have been misunderstandings.

I listened to ~Inkosi~ Mlaba when I was in the other room, talking about the fights that have taken place amongst our people, because of the mere misunderstandings of the governance, the kind of governance that we have engaged in, and people get themselves into fights.  They do not understand that there is this kind of governance that now says this must be done and this must not be done by an ~Inkosi~, and this must be done by the Government, and this must be done by an elected official.  People simply go for one another because they are gunning for those positions.

However, it was significant what ~Inkosi~ Mlaba said in this debate, because most western countries have been afforded adequate opportunity to develop towards full realisation of human rights benefits.  Some have not fully realised these benefits.  Some benefits of the Bill of Rights come with the development of a country.  Some laws based on human rights, or Bill of Rights principles, may not work with people at a certain level of development.

There are stories, for instance and I was amused when I read in one of the newspapers that at one time in the old British Colonies you would not say the word "trousers", in public especially in the presence of women.  I was reminded of the story of Galileo, when he came up with theories like the world is round.  He was fought against and he had to leave the church when he came out and said that the earth is round, and later on it was proved that the earth is round.

There are so many occasions and you all referred to Maqhamsela.  The point I am making, Mr Speaker, is that some of these things, that we have mentioned have to be investigated and put into our situations.  Some of these matters have to be investigated by a Commission so that we can get an understanding of the different people and their different cultural backgrounds.  I do not want to define culture, but in my understanding, some of the members have referred to food, referred to religion and referred to other matters.  I would also like to refer to governance.  These things have to be brought down to the people so that they have an opportunity to pronounce on these matters.

At a certain level of moral development, some laws may not work.  People with a low level of respect for life require and understand the same low respect for their own lives, while the rest of the population is being tutored.  I always criticise the fact that we have suddenly become so sophisticated, without giving our people an opportunity to understand what we are doing.  We have even gone to the extent of passing certain laws which do not really tally with the kind of understanding that we find right down there with our people.  That creates many problems.

Thus, the importance of such a Commission, if it is going to be handled properly, at a certain level of economic development, certain human rights provisions may not work successfully.  Let us say for instance, the right to education.  We are so eager to realise this right, but because of the level of economic development in our country, we may not realise it.

In poorly developed communities, elections are not a panacea for good governance.  Eradication of systems of governance like ~Ubukhosi~, for instance, is a case in point.  Many people do not understand we are saying no, no to ~Ubukhosi~, no to ~Amakhosi~.  They just do not understand, because we are defining everything in terms of western understandings.  The very same western countries took years to develop to that level of democracy and they do not even understand what you mean by democracy, except if you go out there and explain to them what democracy is, people will say to you majority rule, that is all they will tell you.  But if you are talking about the rural people, and even if you were to exercise some aspects of democracy, like say, how many of the people here would like to have an ~Inkosi~, to retain your ~Inkosi~.  Even that has not been done.  But we as sophisticated politicians go about and say, we have to have an election and we have everything and it is okay, but we are aware that it is a developed form of government.  But are we on the same wavelength as our own people?

Some of these things really must be allowed to go through some kind of metamorphosis, natural, gradual metamorphosis, because that, in my understanding, is the kind of thing that will bring about peace and understanding.  Some of the things have just been pushed down people's throats and the people do not understand this.

Mr Speaker, I want to support what even the Minister himself is saying, and the National Minister quoted in the letter to you, Mr Speaker, the question of the proposed Commission:  

	The drafters of the Constitution have acknowledged the fact that the transition process to a full democratic system in South Africa is also dependent on the skilful management of historically founded perceptions regarding different communities.  

Skilful management.  I think the setting up of this Commission is talking about the skilful management of the transition.  This has been referred to as well.  He also quotes this, the Preamble to the Constitution states:

	We, the people of South Africa, believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity".

It further says, substantiating the formation of this:

	To promote and develop peace, friendship, humanity, tolerance and national unity among cultural, religious and linguistic communities on the basis of equality, non-discrimination and free association.

One believes that these are fundamental statements indeed.
Management of historically founded perceptions regarding different communities is crucial.  This, of course, does imply that our Constitution should not be wholly western in orientation, some cultural orientations and perceptions should not be summarily removed at the stroke of the pen.  Some practices and institutions should be allowed to undergo a natural and gradual metamorphosis towards world trends.  Changes should not be forced down communities throats under the cloak of democracy.

THE SPEAKER:  May I ask the Minister to round up, please.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Which democracy is most of the time defined in western terms, which terms are foreign to our indigenous communities.

Mr Speaker, I was going to refer to the question of languages - may I just stress what is in the Constitution.  The official languages of the Republic of South Africa are Sepedi, for the record, I want to repeat this, Sepedi, Sesotho, Setswana, siSwati, Tshivenda, Xitsonga, Afrikaans, English, isiNdebele, isiXhosa and isiZulu.

There is a provision in the Constitution that a Pan South African Language Board be established by national legislation to promote and create conditions for the development and use of all official languages, the Khoi, Nama and San languages, sign languages ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  No.  [LAUGHTER]  And promote and ensure respect - this point has been underlined - respect for all languages commonly used by communities in South Africa, including German, Greek, Gujarati, Hindi, Portuguese, Tamil, Telegu, Urdu and Arabic, Hebrew and other languages used for religious purposes.

Therefore, National and Provincial Governments should note the above points in order to develop minority cultures in South Africa.  At least, that I can afford to say, Mr Speaker.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Now we have come to the end of this debate. 

DEBATE ON A MATTER OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE - VIOLENCE IN RICHMOND

THE SPEAKER:  We shall now continue and deal with the debate on the important issue which I told you about when I started.  It is being moved by the National Party, about the problems we are experiencing with violence in Richmond and other places.  I accordingly therefore call upon the hon Mr Schutte to address this House for eight minutes.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, in the Daily News of 4 August, on the front page, the following report appears under the heading,
		
	Wave of violence sweeps KwaZulu-Natal.

	Violence is spreading like wild fire across KwaZulu-Natal.

	The death toll is increasing as the Province convulses with wave after wave of cowardly attacks mostly on unarmed families.

	Tension has mounted in Dududu, Lindelani, Richmond, Greytown and Umbumbulu, with the recent spate of violence claiming lives in every corner of the Province.

	More than 80 people have been killed in Richmond alone since local leader Sifiso Nkabinde was expelled from the ANC.

	And the Government has come under increasing pressure to quell the violence there.

	But the Midlands town of Richmond is not the only area marked by bloodstains.

	Six people were massacred in Greytown recently, while in Lindelani, north of Durban, up to five people were killed and several homes gutted yesterday.

Mr Speaker, I believe that that is a very fair and accurate reflection and expression of the situation in this Province and in South Africa.  Every newspaper in this Province, and in South Africa, has in recent weeks said that crime is out of control and that the Government is unable to bring it under control.  The situation regarding violence in this Province, and particularly in Richmond, has also dominated the national headlines and debates.  Therefore, I would like to thank you for allowing this debate.

I believe that this situation is so grave that this House has an obligation to deal with it, we have a responsibility to deal with it, but what is more, the Executive of this Province is under a constitutional obligation to report to us on the situation in general, and in particular with regard to Richmond.

Mr Speaker, before arguing a number of solutions, I would just like to make two points.  The first is that we have a crisis on our hands.  In the first three months of this year, 3 761 people were murdered.  That translates into 64 murders per day in this country.  In this Province alone, during three weeks in July, 40 people lost their lives in politically related murders.  Three of those members were public representatives, one from this House.  This constitutes a crisis and should be dealt with as a crisis, and I believe it is affecting our whole wellbeing in this country.

Mr Speaker, the second point I want to make - and this particularly refers to political violence - is that in essence, each and every single act of political violence is, and must be regarded as an anti-democratic act.  Each act of political violence is and was intended to undermine our fledgling democracy and all the values it stands for, each act could only have been done to use terror, intimidation and murder to undermine freedom of political activity, and to disrupt the run-up to next year's elections.

That is why I believe, Mr Speaker, we, as members of this Legislature, should stand united in condemning every act of political violence, irrespective of the political persuasion, or perceived political persuasion of the victims, or the perpetrators of the violence.  If we fail to do so, Mr Speaker, we will be seen to be playing political games on a very serious issue, and we cannot allow that to happen.

Mr Speaker, turning to the solutions, I believe that it must start at the top, at national level.  The National Government must, as a start, acknowledge that the crime situation in this country is a national crisis and is out of hand.  National crises can only be effectively confronted and solved when the country, all of us, are united in the solutions and also are united in our resolve to stop it.

National crises can only be resolved by a united action of all the parties and all the stakeholders.  What we therefore obviously need, Mr Speaker, is that at national level, the National Government should acknowledge that there is a national crisis and they should then bring all the parties, and all the stakeholders, business, agriculture and churches, together.  First of all, to devise a national anti-crime strategy and then to devise ways and means of jointly monitoring and implementing that strategy.  That is the only way in which we will unite our people against crime and in which we will take this matter out of the political sphere.  Mr Speaker, that is in the interest of the country that we do that.

We can play political games, Mr Speaker, we can accuse each other and put blame on each other that this man, or that man, or this party, or that party is incompetent to deal with the matter.  We can play games, but in the end this situation is just going to get worse and worse.  The Rand will drop further, confidence will drop further, our credit rating will drop further, unemployment will soar.  We will sit and Rome will burn.

This matter is a national crisis and it can only be resolved in a unified way by all of us.  Mr Speaker, this approach has worked in the past.  In 1992 when our country was faced with massive political turmoil, all the parties came together and we formulated and implemented a National Peace Accord, and we, together, ensured that this country was returned to normality and we had a peaceful election.

Mr Speaker, coming closer to home and referring to the situation in Richmond.  In Richmond, what appears to be the case is that there are murders and massacres that are being perpetrated on a planned basis.  They appear to be linked with political activity.  There are allegations of so-called Third Force involvement.  The police are accused of ineffectiveness, and the police are complaining of a lack of assistance from the community.  All these allegations are but allegations, they are unsubstantiated, but the violence continues.  I believe we are entitled to know what is going on.  We are entitled to know who is behind the violence, and that can only be done if a Commission is appointed to investigate the matter in Richmond and in other similar areas.

Mr Speaker, the National Constitution specifically empowers this Province to institute commissions to investigate and ensure effective policing and good police/community relations.  We should use this power to open up and investigate this problem.  Here again, we have an example of success, the Goldstone Commission played a major role in reducing violence in the run-up to the 1994 Elections.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member has one minute more.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, I believe we need the same initiative in the run-up to the 1999 Elections.

And just a last point, Mr Speaker, I believe, and I want to state it very emphatically and clearly, that the political violence in this Province, and particularly in hot spots, is not only a matter for the IFP, or the ANC, or possibly for the UDM.  The political freedom of all parties of this Province are affected by political violence, not only the so-called warring factions.  All parties should be involved in peace initiatives.  Other parties not involved in violence can also play a major role in ensuring that there is a mediating  role.

Mr Speaker, I again thank you for allowing this debate.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe to address for six minutes.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE:  Mr Speaker, today's debate takes place against the backdrop of violence, which directly affects everyone of us in this House.  We only have to look at the recent events.  We saw a member of this House, the late hon Bheki Mthembu, murdered and realise that there is something very wrong in our beloved country.

The reality is that of a sustained and systematic assault on the laws and morality of our society which is taking its toll.  This began in Colonial times with the assault on customary law and the wilful destruction of the institutions and laws which governed the lives of the indigenous people of this country.

This process took an even more sinister and insidious form under the National Party Government which tried to strip black people of their legal status as human beings, and introduced a wide range of laws which undermined the very principle of a "regs-staat", or constitutional state.  The National Party tried to reduce customary and traditional law to an administrative tool for "natives" and in so doing, began to erode the fragile fabric of our society and its important regulatory institutions.  In its attack on the family and the institution of a clan and a tribe it tried to usurp unique roles, which it was itself unable to fulfil and much of the disintegration of value systems which are so evident in the informal settlements and other marginalised communities.

A further complicating factor was the call by certain liberation movements to make South Africa ungovernable, and the planned and systematic undermining of many institutions as a strategy to destroy ~Apartheid~.  Mr Speaker, the IFP and its leader, the hon Dr M G Buthelezi, warned from the outset that this strategy was doomed to bring even greater calamity on the heads of the very people who suffered most under ~Apartheid~ and colonial rule.  His warnings and his pleas to those people sitting in exile, calling on the youth over Radio Freedom, to smash the State, to look into the future were ignored.  That warning and the prophesy of a future of violence and instability was ignored.  Today the revolution of ungovernability has returned to devour its own children.  It threatens to destroy the very fabric of our society.

The recent calls by the ANC for a programme of mass action to highlight violence and ungovernability in KwaZulu-Natal is only the latest example of this short sighted and destructive tendency.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE:  To think that mass action, which is by its very nature coercive and has frequently led to violence, can contribute towards bringing down levels of violence and tensions is rather like sending a petrol tanker filled with high octane petrol along to douse a raging fire.  This irresponsible and short sighted call is symptomatic of deep seated confusion.

It is a reality that the ANC led Government has carved out a virtual monopoly over the security organs of this country.  It has inherited and taken control over a massive intelligence network, one of sub-saharan Africa's most powerful defence forces and a huge police force.  It controlled these organs through direct and sustained political management.  Yet despite having these vast resources at its disposal it seems to lack the political will to deal with the scourge of violent crime.  It has failed to tap into the popular will to fight this evil, and it has chosen rather to hold onto its power and ignore offers of assistance and calls for partnership in this area.

THE SPEAKER:  Will the member please round up.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE:  It is therefore important that the sponsors of this motion, the National Party and the majority party in the Government of National Unity, the ANC, come to terms with their own role in the legacy of ungovernability which we have inherited.  It is no good looking for a scapegoat and getting cheap satisfaction out of making well intended but useless statements about crime as has happened during this debate.  We need to look to rebuilding the very fabric of our communities which has been destroyed.  We need to look at rebuilding the family as an institution which shelters the individual.  We need to restore the dignity and authority of those key authority figures in our society who command respect and dispense wisdom.  We need to undo the damage done by colonialist and other authorities to our system of traditional law and we need to rediscover the key principles of ~Ubuntu~-botho, which underpinned our societies in the past.

Our country needs discipline and order if it is to fulfil its enormous potential.  In KwaZulu-Natal we need to form a united front against criminality and violence.  We need to recognise that every life lost is precious and that the victims of crime and violence are not people distant to us, but could tomorrow be any one of us.

The IFP has called for a Revolution of Goodwill, which restores human dignity and restores the invisible bonds which should bind us all together in a common fight against crime and violence.

THE SPEAKER:  May I request the hon member to take his seat.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE:  Thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon Mr Nel to address this House for two minutes.

MR W U NEL: [Thank you, Speaker.  Two minutes is a very short time for this matter].

THE SPEAKER: [I also see that].

MR W U NEL: 

TRANSLATION:  The hon ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe reminded us about what happened here amongst us, the death of the hon Mr Bheki Mthembu.  It is painful to see that the respect that existed in the past has been extinguished in such a manner as we see here amongst ourselves.  

The hon member of the Royal House, V T Zulu, also spoke about quarrels among children of the Royal House and he said when they fight, one respectfully says to the other: "Ndabazitha, you are being rude to me, I will hit you", but they do not end up hitting each other.  Now, how does it happen that all this gets lost?  

It is very good that we work to mould a nation that is united.  It is also good to speak respectfully as we did today, respect for various things is required.  The poison has come into what we are trying to create, the poison that is killing what we are trying to do here.  T/E

Lawlessness, Mr Speaker, is now a national disgrace, fuelling not only hate, suspicion, conflict and violent abuse and murder, but it is also destroying jobs and infra-structure and the very things that we are supposed to leave to our children.

We have heard mention of Lindelani, Wartburg, Richmond, it is also happening daily in Pietermaritzburg, Durban, Dundee and Pietersburg across all communities.  Just today in the Witness we read of a disgraceful account of an alleged sick racist comment by a farmer in the Dundee area which eventually also culminated in the murder of a black man.  So it cuts across all communities, and this hatred is being fuelled daily because of the experiences of people who are being robbed and mugged and whose things are being stolen.  As a nation we must now prove that we are serious about crime and eradicating it, especially violent crime.

Regretfully I do not see a total commitment, a political commitment, at least, at all times from all parties.  Richmond is one infamous example.  There is still allegations of political involvement, of intimidation which prevents information from coming out and of parties that are still reluctant to this day to co-operate in community policing forums, or who boycott joint structures such as the Priority Committee that was established there.

Sir, just like a spider injects enzymes and sucks out the inside of its prey, leaving a shell, if we carry on like this, then crime will suck out the guts of this country, that part of the guts that it has not already sucked out, and leave our Constitution and leave all our wonderful policy papers and White Papers, and all our good intentions, simply as empty shells and a monument to the folly of us as politicians who never dealt with crime in the way we should.

THE SPEAKER:  That is the end the hon Member.

MR W U NEL:  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon Mr Mthiyane to address this House for six minutes.

MR M J MTHIYANE: 

AN HON MEMBER: [They are leaving even now].

MR M J MTHIYANE: [Are the police leaving]?

AN HON MEMBER: [NOT ON RECORD]

MR M J MTHIYANE: 

THE SPEAKER: [The hon member should wrap up].

MR M J MTHIYANE: 

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I also express pain and sadness for the loss of our hon brother Mr Mthembu, for passing on without having been sick, but by being killed in that manner.  

I see, Mr Speaker and your House, that all those who have spoken have said that violence has started anew here in this Province.  There are some areas with indications that violence will not end soon.  If you notice, there is violence in areas such as Dududu.  
If you notice, it is present at Lindelani, but there maybe attempts here at Lindelani that demonstrate that negotiations taking place there might lead to the quelling of violence and ultimately the end of it.

When you take a look at Richmond, you get mystified.  Violence in Richmond is mysterious.  Although there is a saying which says: "That which defeats man should be reported".  I saw people going to report to people such as the President.  The President said no, in his own way he would put an end to violence there.  
In fact, he was promising to put up poles connecting electricity to the area, thinking that electricity poles would end violence.  Despite the presence of electricity, violence is not coming to an end.

Another thing that we see is that many police have been brought into the area.  In my opinion, Speaker and your House, and hon members, maybe violence here in Richmond is between its community members, people who know each other, are in conflict.  People who know each other are fighting, people who know each other are killing each other.  

Now you think that you can bring in police from Pretoria to mediate between people who know each other, who know each other's craftiness, who know how to counteract the actions of one another, like football players they know how to mark and target each other.  

In that violence, the fight is between a bull and a young bull.  But now the problem is that peace cannot be achieved between them, even though the bull and the young bull may be in difficulty.

Mr Speaker, I am saying, maybe there should be a way of coming together and talking.  The ANC and the UDM should get together and talk to each other here in Richmond.  Maybe when talking to each other, they will find respect and soothe each other's spirits and minds and get out and tell their followers that they should stop killing each other with guns.

Yes, this thing called the Third Force has been raised quite a lot.  Yes, the Third Force does not just enrol itself with people who are not fighting.  The Third Force goes in when it sees an open wound and plays the two sides against each other and the two sides are left shooting at each other, or they are left in conflict.  But if these people can talk and not harden their hearts as far as negotiations are concerned, maybe such carnage would be reduced.  Those people who are refusing to negotiate do not have feelings for the families being devastated.  There are also innocent people who are being devastated, people who are not in politics.

I entreat within this House, Speaker, as other hon members were saying, that all organisations, even those that are not involved, should unite and preach the spirit that the ANC and the UDM should get together and talk, as we, the ANC and the IFP fought, but in the end it came to a point when people from both sides sat down and talked about the issue.  Even there, the issue should be discussed.  

Nkabinde is a reality, his party is now a reality.  It will also be present at the elections.  Just because he left one party to join another should not be reason enough not to talk with him.

We are saying, it is talking that will bring an end to violence.  It is not the police that would bring an end to violence.  A policeman arrests and takes a person to the magistrate, but people talk and reach a point where they forgive each other. 

We are pleading, Mr Speaker, we entreat that our brothers across there, and maybe even the old men, should come and drag them and go and speak to the other side so that there can be peace, but maybe they do that.  [LAUGHTER]  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  I am sorry, thank you.  I will now call upon in terms of the Speaker's list Mr Rajbansi.  He does not seem to be in the House.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

THE SPEAKER:  No well, in that event, I will proceed to ask Mr Haygarth to address the House for seven minutes.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR G HAYGARTH:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  What a contrast we have here this afternoon, and it is perhaps useful that we have had the two debates, one on culture and the background to people's lives, and the other on the violence which exists amongst our communities here today.

Minister Singh and the hon Dr Meer gave some very good indications of the traditions of the Indian culture and how it has brought those people up, education wise, language wise and family wise and how they have managed to maintain their culture for so many years.  Unfortunately, the hon Dr Meer then developed his theme of the role of the National Party, and I want to take issue with him there.  While I know that Dr Meer and his good wife, Professor Meer, have suffered something terrible in their lives in this respect, one must look at some of the history to which the hon Mr Burrows referred.

If you go back, on the wall here is a memorial to the hon Harry Escombe, PC QC LLD, who was the Attorney-General, and also a Prime Minister in this colony.  I have a copy of his speeches at home.  One third of those speeches deals with the problem of Indian immigration.  Why the hon Mohandas Gandhi, who came to this Province, was thrown off a train.  Who made those rules that said he could not travel in certain coaches?  The National Party was not even in existence during those times.

Have a look at the Business Licence Rules.  The problem of the No Necessity Clause, what was that introduced for?  It was a racial issue, not by the National Party.  I would be ashamed to read you some of the by-laws that were in Durban many years ago, in the 1920's.  The National Party was not there then, there were not even any Afrikaners on the council.  If you have a look at the development of Durban North, what did it have in it?  Every title deed had an anti-Asiatic clause.  If one looks at those, long before the National Party came into power.

Notwithstanding that, I think we must say that in the development of races each one of them has their own ideas and their own ways which we must acknowledge.  It is interesting that in the UK, the Archbishop of Canterbury had a commission investigate the problems that they were suffering in the 1980's, between the black people, Parliament and the police, that sort of thing, very similar to what we are having here, and he came to a conclusion that the Government must solve the problem and put money into it.

There was a response to that by Sir Immanuel Jankobovitz who was the Chief Rabbi of the United Kingdom, and he drew attention to the Jewish culture, which is very similar to the Indian culture.  Long standing, oppressed people who had to find their way out and they did it by respecting their family lives, by treating their parents with respect, by seeing that education was achieved by their young people, that their young people were respectful to others, that their community, when they tried to get themselves out of the ghetto's which existed in Eastern Europe, those people went about it in a way in which they worked hard and they saw themselves as the people who must lift themselves up out of the mire.

It is that type of thing that is looked for here in the longer term.  We need the cultures of all of the groups that are involved to devote themselves towards family life.  The ~Ubuntu~ tradition of the African community and the elimination of the problems that we have at political level.  This point has been made, and I think we must make it again, the problems stem from the need to achieve power and political turf in the new state of this country in which we have to determine who shall be the rulers.  It is unfortunate that in that respect there is no tolerance, there is no democratic feeling for our young democracy.  We have to fight hard in the short term, with every means at our disposal, be it the police or the army, to assist the thousands of people who want peace, who are not part of this political ambition, who want to bring up their children in a culture of peace in a way in which they can have jobs and employment.

THE SPEAKER:  May I request the hon member to wind up.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  With that short-term solution, we then have to look to the longer term solution which is involved in our respective cultures, tolerance and a hope, giving people a hope for their future lives.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon the hon Mr Ntombela to address us for six minutes.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Deputy Chief Whip): 

TRANSLATION:  Let me express gratitude, Mr Speaker, and your hon House.  Firstly, let me thank the IFP Party for having great patience and for following the cause of peace which it said it would follow a long time ago.  Let me say thank you for the fact that there is no-one who does not know that as Felgate sits here, he comes from the IFP.  There is no disturbance that has been caused by the IFP because of Felgate leaving the IFP and going to the ANC.  I am grateful for that, you of the IFP.

Mr Speaker, it is a known fact that as we are gathered here, there are many people who lost their homes, who have no houses and who stay in the wilderness because of this existing violence.  As we gather here, Mr Speaker, there are still many people in the mortuary, in hospitals, some of whom should be sitting here with us, some of them should be sitting in their homes, but because of violence, they are filling the mortuary.  They have not even been buried.

I would like to particularly delve, Mr Speaker, in the area of Richmond, which is the one that drew the attention of the entire world.  I am not implying that in areas such as Mdumezulu and Dududu and Lindelani and Izingolweni and other similar places, people did not die.  Yes, even there, many people died, but attempts were made to bring together those concerned communities.

~Inkosi~ Ngubane made every attempt of going to those areas I have mentioned, trying to bring together those groups which did not see eye to eye.  At Lindelani, as we speak, the hon ~Inkosi~ Ngubane has been there, trying to bring together those involved.  That was done by this party, the IFP, in order to establish peace in those areas.  At Mdumezulu, there also, meetings intended to bring together the entire community, were held.  At Dududu, a similar thing was done.

What becomes problematic, Mr Speaker, is that when you talk about the Richmond issue, when it is said that we should bring together this community, where the ANC organisation and the UDM are in conflict, conflict which has caused the loss of many lives, when the leader of this House and the one in charge of Justice and Security, ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, when this Safety and Security Committee wants to go and bring together the concerned parties, the ANC digs its hard nails deep into the ground, saying it does not want to talk with the UDM.

It is an issue that raises questions, Mr Speaker, that requires a response from any skilled person in order to say, who is this person who is killing people in Richmond?  There should be a response in that when you say you do not want to engage in discussions, do you then know who is killing these people who are dying?  When you say you do not want to be in discussions when people are being buried daily.  Whose people are dying?  Who is killing those people?  Do you, the African National Congress, wish that people should continue dying in Richmond?  That is a question that requires a response.  T/E

THE SPEAKER: [I would ask the hon Member to wrap up].

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Deputy Chief Whip):  Hawu!

THE SPEAKER:  Six minutes, [They did not give you much time, six minutes only].

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Deputy Chief Whip): 

HON MEMBERS: [INTERJECTIONS].

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Deputy Chief Whip): [Paulos Vezi was shot].

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Deputy Chief Whip):  

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, although I have been hurt, but I have to say the truth as the last thing that here at Izingolweni, people died.  Those of the African National Congress, as the police heard and as I, David Ntombela, heard, said they were the ones who killed Sigoloza.  This was said by those of the African National Congress.  The police were called and told.  I arrived here and told my colleague, the hon member, Bheki Cele, I told him to tell his people that when they are in conflict with the UDM, they should not drag the IFP into that.  I am saying that I do not wish for any person to misrepresent, because it is something that I see as being delicate, the thing that is being done by the African National Congress.

Mr Speaker, honestly, I must say this as I sit down.  What was said in the speech by the hon Nxamalala at a funeral in Richmond, is not a speech of a leader, leading the African National Congress, to say that there are three members of the IFP who are the ones instigating violence in Richmond.  That is why people are dying.  The hon Nxamalala, that is not the truth.  Hardly two weeks went by and Jacob Zuma was shot. 

HON MEMBERS: [INTERJECTIONS].

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Deputy Chief Whip): [Paulos Vezi was shot].

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Deputy Chief Whip):  My people, I must say that no matter what you can say, that was a speech spoken at the funeral.  I am saying, the African National Congress, honestly, must look at itself on whether it wants the establishment of peace.  Does the African National Congress wish for the IFP to continue talks with the ANC when the ANC does not want discussions when people are dying.  These people are of the Isilo, the Monarch.  These people are of Phungashe and Mageba.  People should not be killed on this side. I am thankful.  T/E

THE SPEAKER: TRANSLATION:  I am asking the hon member to really sit down, because the time that the Whips had allocated for you has lapsed.  I am now going to ask Nkwali Mkhwanazi to speak for one minute.  I do not know how he will do that.  T/E

MR J D MKHWANAZI: 

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I believe that the Whips were correct in giving me one minute, because I do not have the strength to talk about this matter.  We have talked about this thing several times and presented a cure.  When the Africans had spoken, the entire community, we said there is one way leading to correcting people when they are in conflict.  It is sitting down and talking.  One day, while the IFP and the ANC were still in conflict, I even said, if I had my way, I would lock them in a house and provide food through the window and take the key, get on transport to England and be called back when it is said they have made a truce.  There is no other cure.

I hear of those other cures, they are fine, but the greatest cure, my people, is to ferment our hearts, sit down and see how, together, on our own, we can correct that which is destroying the home.  There is no other way.  Africans can speak skilfully in whatever way.  People are dying, Mr Speaker.  It is not the chickens that are dying.  Our people are dying, they are dying.  We should try and do anything that can help us so that our people do not die.  Let us not just look at ourselves.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  T/E

THE SPEAKER: [Thank you.  Now, I am going to ask Mrs Downs, she also has one minute].

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, one minute, one solution, one comment, that is all I have time for.  Solution - political parties should have the political will to drum out of office every single person that has been involved with and perpetrates political violence.

One comment about Richmond, why has the recommendation of the Safety and Security Committee, which was given more than a year ago, not been implemented in this Province?  I think it could have saved many lives.

Not wishing to impose myself on anybody, but I would like to raise a prayer for the families of all of those that have been killed in our Province and I would just like to ask our Father God to comfort the families of every single person that has suffered a loss, either due to crime, or political violence, in the Name of Jesus.  Amen.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member, Mr Bheki Cele, who will address the house for 16 minutes as the Minister of Health was unable to take advantage of his eight minutes.  It will be 16 minutes for Mr B Cele.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR B H CELE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Unfortunately Baba Ntombela is not here.  I would have reminded him that words are the wings of the mind.  I hope that what he said is not what he thinks, that in two weeks, Jacob Zuma will be attacked.  I hope it is not exactly what he thinks that will happen.

To ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe, I would have responded to him if he had written his speech.  But I saw the speech being delivered to him, so I will not respond to him.  [LAUGHTER]  I will not honour somebody's speech by responding.  The day that the person who wrote the speech, speaks, I will respond to that speech.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR B H CELE:  I can take him in my confidence that we can debate the issues that he raised about ungovernability and all that kind of thing.  Definitely we had to make ~Apartheid~ ungovernable, and we cannot apologise for making the ~Apartheid~ State ungovernable.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, please!

MR B H CELE:  Definitely, we are here because we made ~Apartheid~ ungovernable and unworkable.  For those who collaborated with ~Apartheid~, they can sit there and lick the wounds of their cowardice to submit.  We could not.  The time came to fight and we fought.  We did not submit, and again, we will never submit to any oppressive system, whether it is ~Apartheid~ or Hitlerism.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

AN HON MEMBER:  Go to Richmond.

MR B H CELE:  I will go to Richmond.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order, please!

MR B H CELE:  The problem about us debating here is that out of this tragedy, out of the killing, we still find the chance to make jokes.  That is the tragedy of this debate.  People still laugh about it and still make jokes about it, to ensure that they get the maximum political gain, rather than dealing with the lives of the people.  What a hypocrisy.

People talk about the number of people dying.  They have heard that 40 people have died.  Unfortunately you talk about names, you talk about faces and you put names to those faces, not about five males being killed, six females being killed, you talk about names and faces.  That makes a difference.  That makes people who want to debate here to try and make political gain because there are no names that were killed.  We know females, we know Percy's, we know Nothembas, we know Siphos, we know people that we have lived with and that makes the difference.  I would like people to understand it in that context, that we deal with faces and names, real human beings, not just figures, four and forties.  That is the difference.

This point has been raised by the National Party, who for years  sat and brewed the violence that we are reaping today.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR B H CELE:  If you deny that, sit down and listen to what the former Minister of Police, Vlok, said, the whole Ministry sat down to plan and plot.  The Minister.  Planning to go and bomb church buildings.   

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR B H CELE:  Yes, to go and bomb a building.  That is the Minister of Police.  He planned that with the police and those police have not yet changed ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!  Order, please!

MR B H CELE:  They have not changed.  You can sit there.  It is your honour to defend those actions of those Ministers, some of you, you have the right to do it.  You have the right to sit there and defend the actions of Minister Vlok, who planned, who sent the police to go and burn people alive.  Burn them until they turned to ashes, while they were busy braaiing and drinking, and then they threw the ashes into the rivers.  You can sit there, you can sit and support them, it is your right to do that.  You have the right to do that.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order please!

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR B H CELE:  But the world understands.  The world knows that your morals, even today, have not begun to prick you to say you were wrong then.  That is for sure, you have the right to do it.  We are dealing with people here, we are not dealing with figures.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order, please!

AN HON MEMBER:  Will the member take a question?

MR B H CELE:  No, I will not take any questions.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  No, order, please!  Order, please!  Let the hon member have his say, he is entitled to it.  Even it is undesirable what he says, he has every right to say it.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

THE SPEAKER:  Will the hon member please stand up.  The hon member has the floor, let us allow the man to complete his speech.

MR B H CELE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

AN HON MEMBER:  In fact, it is not the IFP ...

MR B H CELE:  Mr Speaker, it is true, people are dying in KwaZulu-Natal again.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Let us have order, please!  Let us have order, please!

MR B H CELE:  Ninety five people have died in Richmond alone during a period of 17 months and no arrests have been made.  People are dying in Lindelani, people are dying in Umkomaas, people are dying in Umbumbulu, people are dying in Isingolweni and those are the people of the Province.  All of us, we have to have the political will to make sure that we stop this killing.  But again, people should stop making political mileage out of that.  In this House, more than many times - three is always many - Sifiso Nkabinde drew a gun against Baba Ntombela out here, on these premises ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order, please!

MR B H CELE:  While we were here we were told that they will draw a gun with the hon member, Philip Powell, out there, as they were moving there ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MR B H CELE:  Today we were told that they nearly shot one another. 

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MR B H CELE:  Yes, there is a docket.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Mr Powell, please.

MR B H CELE:  All in the Portfolio Committee.  The hon member Konigkramer, always venomously attacked Sifiso.  Those are the new alliances of Sifiso today.  When he was released from prison, they were the first people to go and welcome him.  When he was arrested and was in prison, they went to visit him  three, four times.  What has changed, Mr Speaker?  Where did this change come from and why so fast?  Why do you move from drawing a gun and almost shooting one another to joining the celebrations once he was released from prison?

MR B H CELE:  What is it?  What is the deal?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Let us have order, please!

MR B H CELE:  This House must be told about the deal.  What is this new deal that has been established.  We the ANC will tell you.  It is the ANC's policy to have talks to make peace, but the ANC will not talk to thugs, killers and bandits.  The people of Richmond are being killed by bandits.  Out of the 95 people who were killed there, only two or three of them were killed during the day.  The people are killed during the night by people who have balaclavas on.  Do you want us to go and take those balaclavas and talk to those people that you do not know?  Nobody has come and said, "I am killing those people".

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order please!

MR B H CELE:  The hon member Baba Ntombela and the hon member Arthur Konigkramer, can ask that man they visit now and again, their new found friend, to tell them what the story is and they can come back and tell us what the story is.

AN HON MEMBER:  Yes.

MR B H CELE:  Please do tell us, we would love to know.  Here in this Province ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order, please!

MR B H CELE:  We have 95 as I said.  In Lindelani, only yesterday, seven bodies were found in the morning, and I tell you, nobody is being arrested.  It takes, and I am saying this with due respect, it takes a nun at Eshowe to mobilise the helicopters, to mobilise everybody.  Even before the bodies are found, the people are found.  I know, Mrs Millin, you will not respond to that.  It takes only that 100 people, you cannot get them in 17 months.  It takes only three days and the people are arrested.  A nun goes missing at Eshowe, the car is found at Inanda, people are found at Fort Durnford, you know that there is a third one, by the way, he has been arrested and has appeared in court.  All this happened in two weeks.  That is so, that is so.  And when you raise those things, people they say it is because you are racists.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR B H CELE:  Now, we would love to see the same efficiency that has been applied at Eshowe happening at Richmond.  Please, Mr Police, please, Mr Operator in this Province, Chris Serfontein help us, mobilise, please mobilise, as they did down in the Western Cape where four or five farmers were killed.  The morning after helicopters and the army were mobilised.  Who has the pulling power of this searching power?  Is it your face or is it because you are a human?  Is it your face that gets everybody  mobilised, that so many are sent and then you are found.  Those are the questions this House will have to ask and find answers to.  At the end of the day it is us that will have to say that the people in Eshowe cannot be treated differently from the people of Richmond, Lindelani, Umbumbulu, Isingolweni and Dududu.  It cannot happen, it cannot.  Why is there so much efficiency?  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!

MR B H CELE:  Why do the police experience problems and say that there is no evidence forthcoming from Richmond and Lindelani.  A nun is killed and there are no witnesses whatsoever.  We do not hear the same question that people are afraid to come forward.  Where did they get the evidence?  Where did they get these witnesses which they are failing to get where the blacks are dying?  Where?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!

MR B H CELE:  Those answers will have to be found.  I know some of you understand, but for the sake of propaganda, we have to make a noise here.  Some of you do not understand, because it is males and females that died, not Nothembas and Percys.  That is the difference.

Mr Speaker, in closing, when all is said and done, maybe you will answer that question, when did they last play in drawing the guns and pointing it at one another?  All said and done, it remains the task of this House and the political colleagues to use the organs of the State.  You do not negotiate with bandits.  You arrest bandits, you lock them up and throw the key away.  The bandits will rot in prison.  That is where the bandits belong, those heartless, spiritless people who kill people must go to prison.

Thus, the answer to the co-called Commission, we do not only want to know who killed the people, we want those people to be sent to prison.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member has had his time.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR B H CELE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, thank you so much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon the hon Minister ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, to address us for six minutes.

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional & Environmental Affairs & Safety & Security):  Mr Speaker, Section 12 (1) (c) of the Constitution of South Africa confers on every citizen the absolute right to be free from all forms of violence from whatever source.  It is a fact, sir, that millions of our citizens on a daily basis are deprived of this most basic human right.  In terms of the Bill of Rights, Section 7 (2), it is the duty of the State to "Protect, promote and fulfil the rights in the Bill of Rights."

In fact, Mr Speaker, the State has failed, and continuous to fail its citizens in this regard.  It is not protecting its citizens from the wave of crime that is affecting every facet of our lives.  Section 205 (3) of our Constitution states that it is the duty of the police to "Combat and investigate crime to maintain public order, to protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic and their property and to uphold and enforce the Law."

It is a fact, Mr Speaker, that the police are unable to protect the people of South Africa from crime and to secure their property.  Mr Speaker, it is not going to help us, as South Africans, if we engage in a game of blaming each other for the high crime rate and for lawlessness in our land, but it will also be of no help whatsoever if we do not stop to examine the root causes of crime and violence.

As the MEC responsible for Safety and Security in the Province, I want to assure my fellow citizens that I will do everything with my limited power to combat crime.  It goes without saying that I will do all in my power to help the National Government to fight crime.  But having said that, Mr Speaker, it is again my duty to point out that the National Government has retained all effective policing powers for itself.  The provinces have no real power.  The only power we have is to monitor and observe.  The National Government still has the desire to control everything from Pretoria by remote control.

It is a fact that it is not going to work, in fact, it will never work.  We will not make real progress in combatting crime until provinces have meaningful powers to manage the police.  I wish to warn against another tendency I see in this regard, and that is individual members of the ruling party at national level, supported by people who wrongly call themselves independent monitors, are showing an increasing tendency to remove policemen they do not like from office.  This is a very dangerous development that is happening in our country, South Africa.  Once we start trying to get only people we like in the security services, we start interfering with their neutrality and independence.  Immediately you start doing this, you will also cause the public to lose confidence in the police.  It is what is happening today.  They will, in my view, correctly believe that politicians are interfering in the police for party political reasons.

Mr Speaker, the other issue I wish to deal with is attitudes towards crime.  I believe it is irrefutable that much of the lawlessness we have in our country today can be traced back to programmes to make South Africa ungovernable.  That may be uncomfortable to some of the members in this House, but that is the truth.  A programme to make a country ungovernable is by its very definition rooted in violence.  We are reaping the seeds of this lawlessness now, and it is going to be difficult to stop this culture of violence and lawlessness.

Mr Speaker, you know that the IFP believes in negotiations.  That is why when the ANC was unbanned, we said the only way towards reparation would be by sitting around a political table and to discuss the issues.  Not to carry arms, because arms would not have helped us.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional & Environmental Affairs & Safety & Security):  In fact, it is how we achieved liberation in South Africa, we did not fight anybody, we sat down, discussed our issues, that is why we are now liberated.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order, please!

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional & Environmental Affairs & Safety & Security):  The people who are making such a noise on the other side, are the people who are not concerned about the killing of people, especially in Richmond.  The people you find talking too much about the Richmond issue are the people who do not even live in Richmond.  The ANC people who live in Richmond are the people who want to sit down and discuss these issues, because they are the people who feel the pinch and who feel the pain.  But the people who do not live there will always tell you that there is no need for negotiations.  That is the problem that we are facing.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional & Environmental Affairs & Safety & Security):  We have been saying that violence in Richmond and other flash point areas, cannot be controlled by the deployment of additional forces without any discussion.  While forces are being deployed, then we must create a platform to discuss these issues.  Peace must come from the people themselves.  You cannot force peace through the barrel of a gun.  Bring all the soldiers to point guns at the people and hope that there will be peace.  There will not be any peace.

Therefore, we have questions here.  How many people have been necklaced in South Africa?  How many people?  How many people had been burnt alive in South Africa, by whom?  The party that started this programme, I am referring to the one of ungovernability, must be big enough to own up to its responsibility and to admit that that was wrong.  By constantly blaming others for the violence, we will be doing nothing to provide solutions.

If we wish to stop the crime that is tearing our country apart, we are going to have to change our attitudes.  Yes, we will need more policemen and more resources, that will help.  But what we need more than anything is a change in attitude.  I believe most people, ordinary people, are beginning to get to know this.  The problem is that they think they are powerless to change this.  It is time that we as elected leaders must start to listen to what the people are saying, then start programmes to implement what they want.  Although, as I have already indicated, as Minister of Safety and Security in the Province, without real powers, it is my intention to go to the people and listen to their concerns.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional & Environmental Affairs & Safety & Security):  Finally, I wish to say something about our cherished way of life and culture.  What is happening to ~Ubuntu~?  What has happened to our total respect for life?  To kill and to steal strikes at the very essence of our culture and its very roots.  What is going on in our country today is a disgrace to our forefathers and ancestors.  What sort of freedom do we have when we allow criminals to destroy the very fabric of our society and to violate our basic humanity every day.

It is time to make a fresh start.  We are going to have to do so by learning respect for life and property.  By again going back to the basic values which we, as people have lived by for generations.  Our society must again be given the means to ostracise criminals and wrongdoers from their midst.  Crime must be seen not to pay and wrongdoers must be punished with the full force of the law.  People must again have the chance to believe in the law because they see that it is working for them.

Just as we are talking here, Mr Speaker, there is a great function in Richmond where the National Government is closing the police station there with the aim to introduce, what we call, alternative police structures.  They are doing that without consulting the Provincial Government, without even informing us here that they intend doing that.  They are in the process of doing that there. They are going to introduce new leaders.  The police have been requested to choose their places of deployment, they are going to be deployed all over.  They are just doing that.  Their aim is to centralise everything so that they can control that police station by remote control from Pretoria or Cape Town.

My dear friends and colleagues, it is not going to work.  Let them do it, but it is not going to work.  I am saying, it is very bad.  Our people there, the people who are being killed there, are our people.  It is especially the Zulu people who are being killed there.  I am very sorry about that.  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Now the last one to address the House will be Mr J Waugh for five minutes.

MR J C N WAUGH:  Mr Speaker, thank you very much.  It is a pity that the need arose that this motion be debated, but the situation has become so bad that we felt that this should be done.

In the light of the forthcoming election, one asks oneself, what will happen during that time if the situation at this moment is so bad?  Mr Speaker, therefore we must deal with this matter rather sooner than later.

Our Province has the potential to be one of the worst hit by crime and political violence.  After hearing all the previous speakers, I think I am not wrong in saying, Mr Speaker, that all of us agree that the situation in the Province is unacceptable.  It is a pity though, Mr Speaker, that some of us saw it fit to use this opportunity to make politics of this issue.

This motion was not requested by us to make politics, but in all seriousness, to discuss the issue of crime and violence and also to ask that action be taken now.  All of us have a responsibility to deal with this matter.

Mr Speaker, I must deal with the hon Mr Bheki Cele.  I just want to just say to the hon Mr Bheki Cele, he went on a tangent about what is being done and what is not being done.  I just want to remind that hon colleague that his colleagues are part of National Government and the police is a National Government function.  It is just so much his Party's responsibility than any of us.  And more so, his colleagues are also part of the Executive of this Province.

Mr Speaker, to keep on referring to the past and Mr Adriaan Vlok, etcetera, does not help us.  We do not keep referring to Church Street, to Quatro Camps, to other killings, to necklacing and match boxes, etcetera.  We do not.  But, what do we want to do -we need peace in this Province, and he must be part of the peace in this Province.  He must not now come and say, "You do not talk to thugs.  You do not do this".  Mr Speaker, if you have peace, and if you are honest in wanting to achieve peace, you talk to thugs.  You do that and you cannot say anybody is a thug.  No, that hon member must rather look at himself and be part of the process in solving the problem and not part of the process in identifying the problems.

A shortcoming of this debate, in my opinion, is that we did not get many solutions for the problems.  One would have thought that the Executive would use this opportunity to put a plan on the table and say, this is where we are going.  That is what one would expect of a debate like this.  We did not get that.

Mr Speaker, we on this side of the House, welcome the fact that the Private Members Bill which was submitted by my colleague, Mr Gordon Haygarth, has now been referred to the relevant Portfolio Committee.  We do honestly believe that that is part of the solution.  We do honestly believe that, and that is why we put that Bill on the table.  We are thankful that that Bill has now been referred and we will be dealing with that.  May we just use that opportunity to improve the Bill in order to get a Bill that is workable.

Mr Speaker, I have heard nothing about the good idea of the Minister of Safety and Security on the Peace Accord, which he mentioned previously, or in the press some time ago.  A Peace Accord for our Province.  We, on this side of the House, have been supporting that for a long time and that is why we will support him in getting the process going.

THE SPEAKER:  May the hon member please round up.

MR J C N WAUGH:  The most important fact, however, Mr Speaker, is that each and every political party must be part of that process.  We all have a responsibility to be co-signatories to that process and we must all be involved in that process.  It is not an accord where only some political role players are present and others not.  Everybody must be part of that.

In closing, Mr Speaker, may I just say, after all is said and done, as my hon colleague, Mr Cele said, and that is where I want to agree with him, we, in this House, each and every one of us ...

MR B H CELE:  INTERJECTION.

MR J C N WAUGH:  Nearly quoting you, I will just improve on your statement.  Mr Speaker, we in this House, each and every one of us, must take hands, we must go forward and we must be seen out there to be the leaders in solving the crime and the violence in this Province.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  That brings us to the end of the debate.  I do not know whether any Minister has any announcement to make in the absence of the Premier.  

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional & Environmental Affairs & Safety & Security):  Mr Speaker, I am not aware of any announcements.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED SINE DIE AT 17:52

	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	FIFTH SITTING - FIRST SITTING DAY
	WEDNESDAY, 30 SEPTEMBER 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 14:50 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, ~ULUNDI~.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  The House resumes.

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

I have before me here a list of people who have passed away between the time we met and now.  It is with great sadness that I announce the passing away of an hon member of our House, Mr V V Mvelase.  He was Chairperson of the Public Works Committee.  As though that was not enough, I also have to announce that on the 28th of September, Thembiso Khawula and Bongani Nsele who were from the hon J S Ndebele's office died.  The vehicle in which they were travelling overturned between Pietermaritzburg and Durban.  Mr Mtetwa who was also in the vehicle sustained injuries.  We wish him a speedy recovery.  May I request the House to stand.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS STAND

May their souls rest in peace and we wish our member Mr Mtetwa a speedy recovery.  The House resumes.

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

Ladies and gentlemen, I had arranged that a letter from the Premier and myself be given to you, before I was going to make this announcement.  This has not been done, but nevertheless I will continue to make the announcement.  The letter reads as follows:

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, I would like to object to that.  This was correspondence between yourself, the Speaker and myself as Premier.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

THE PREMIER:  I consider it therefore to be privileged information, which will in future happen between anyone who occupies the Chair of the Speaker and anyone who occupies the Chairmanship of the Executive Committee of this Province.  I do not think it is a matter that should necessarily go to Parliament, other than possibly the consequences of it.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  I have in fact avoided the dissipation of this correspondence in the light of what the Premier has said.  In compliance with a request from my party that I should resign as the Speaker of this House.  Of course, I will, as requested, remain a member of this House. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the members of the Assembly, as well as the Province, in whose service I have acted as Speaker for these four-and-a-half years.  No one can judge his own performance.  I worked extremely well with my staff and the Legislature, as well as with the members of this House.  I regard it as an honour to have presided over the proceedings of the House, which carries its duties and functions with dignity and decorum.  There were of course instances where this dignity and decorum were tainted by mishaps.  I am happy to say I never experienced anything like we witnessed on television, that happened in the National Parliament recently, where there was boxing and all the rest of it.  That reminds me of what I saw in Seoul or somewhere in the East.  

We have maintained dignity and decorum for which I have always stood.  I have had your co-operation here that everything must be done with decency and respect for Parliament, which is the supreme body here.  There were of course instances where this dignity and decorum was tainted with mishaps.  I am happy to say I never experienced anything like what I saw on television, as I have already said.  

I will now join the House as a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party somewhere on the back benches as John Major did in the House of Commons.  Let me say here that I am a founder member of the Inkatha Freedom Party.  At the beginning it was, Ubhoko, when we started in 1971 and after that, it became the Inkatha Liberation Movement.  Then it became the Inkatha Freedom Party.  So there you have it.  For 27 years I have served my party and indeed I have had no mishaps, nor was any blemish found on me.  I am glad that these people are all over there in this House, who were organised to come and carry out intensification polarisation on me in a situation of this nature.

It will indeed be a pleasure to watch the proceedings from this vantage point until the end of the present Parliament.  The next millennium will not see me in politics.  I bow out with these words of King Arthur to one of the knights once said in Milton's poem:

	The old order changes
	Yielding place to new. 
	If indeed I have become the old custom,
	to corrupt the world so be it, 
	that I bow out honourably.
	I have lived my life
	And that which I have done,
	May God Himself make pure. 

No man can judge his own performance.  It is for you and history to tell what I did and what I did wrong and what my worth was.  So, I bow out honourably as the Speaker of this Province in the light of what I have already told you.  This is the end of it all.  We have come at a journey's end in the long history of KwaZulu-Natal, and I am happy that it should be so.  This is the end of what I wanted to say, I do not think there is anything else I can say beyond that.  I leave the rest to you.  Yes, the hon Dr Zwele Mkhize?

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  As much as we take note of the fact that this is not necessarily a matter for discussion, it is however the wish of our Party to put on record that we have taken note of what you have said Mr Speaker with regard to the announcement of your resignation.  It has however come on a rather sad kind of note, because the fact is that the Speaker was elected with consensus and understanding at the beginning of his term in 1994.  It would have been our wish that if there was a change, that it should have been discussed in a similar manner as when we had consensus to elect yourself as the Speaker.

We now of course have questions as to whether your resignation was voluntarily or not.  I am glad that the Speaker has indicated the circumstances.  We do however wish to indicate that in this case, it becomes necessary for us to look at the Constitution.  If we look at Section 33 that requires that when a decision of this nature is taken, reasons need to be given as to why it was necessary for you to be removed, and secondly, if that were not the case, Section 111 (4) requires that the House should agree to a resolution on the matter of the removal of a Speaker.

However, Mr Speaker, from our Party we wish to express our sincere gratitude towards you as Speaker of this House.  We will always think of you with fond memories.  You as the Speaker, were always able to deal with the debates in an evenhanded manner, ensuring balanced debating.  Of course, we will miss your wisdom and wit, spiced with the Latin expressions that has always come to mark the sittings of this Legislature.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  And we want to say, Mr Speaker, that that can be credited to your cool temperament and experience that you have been able to guide this House.  At the times when we had a very explosive political atmosphere, you were able to guide us through it.  Therefore, we would like to say we have been honoured to have had you as a Speaker.  The history of KwaZulu-Natal shall record an era where the new democratic Government was led by the two Nyanda brothers.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  We want to say that it is to your credit that we never experience the kind of pugilistic exchange that happened in Cape Town, and we hope it never will happen in this Province.  With that, we want to thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Schutte?

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, on behalf on the National Party and myself, I would like to express our dismay at your announcement today.  Mr Speaker, with only a few months left before the general elections ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, a point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order, please!  Order, please!  Let us have order, please.  On a point of order, the Chief Whip ...

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, a point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  On a point of order.  The Chief Whip has the floor.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, as I understand it, you came into this House and you offered your voluntary resignation ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, you offered your voluntary resignation in an extremely dignified and proper manner, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, those parties on the other side of the House are now trying to attempt to create a debate where there is no debate scheduled whatsoever.  It was simply an announcement by Mr Speaker, which we accept, in the spirit in which you gave it.  There is no provision for debate, there is no provision whatsoever for the hon Dr Mkhize ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order, please!

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I am still busy ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  I am still busy with a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please, Mr Edwards, you will have your chance.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, and in the light of that, there is no provision whatsoever to make a debate out of what was really an announcement by yourself.  It is quite clear that those parties there are trying to make and issue out of your resignation and I believe, Mr Speaker, that you should move on to the next matter on the Order Paper.

THE SPEAKER:  Mrs Cronje.  Order, please!  May I at least, on this one single occasion, have order in this House.  I have always praised you for being orderly.  In fact, the Premier himself, in front of you here present, praised me for having been able to maintain order and dignity in this House.  Why then, must there on this my last day, be a situation which derogates that observation from the Premier.  Please, hold your peace.  Everybody has a right to speak.  I do not care how wrong he might be, but he has a right to speak.  I will therefore call upon Mrs Cronje to have her say, however you think and feel about it.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, I was interrupted ...

THE SPEAKER:  Mrs Cronje?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Schutte, sorry.  Mr Speaker, I am taking a point of order in response to the hon Mr Tarr.  It is indeed with shock and shame that we have just had to listen to the hon Chief Whip of the IFP on this issue.  If the Speaker of an hon House is constructively dismissed, as seems to be the case here, and announces his intention not to be Speaker any longer, and we as parties are not given the opportunity by the IFP to express our gratitude ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, please!  Take your seat, Mrs Cronje, please.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, another point of order.  Mr Speaker, Mrs Cronje is using words which are inflammatory in this House, and they are choosing, Mr Speaker, to make your resignation a totally undignified and unseemly affair.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, using words like "constructively dismissed".  Mr Speaker, I appeal to you, you made a dignified statement to the House, that we should leave it at that, because we cannot allow this debacle to continue in this House.  I feel, Mr Speaker, rule this matter over and can we continue with the Order Paper.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Ladies and gentlemen, once again - no, no, no, no, once again, I must appeal for order.  Before you complete your speech, Mrs Cronje, I will grant an opportunity to the Premier, who is the first amongst all of us present here.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, this is a very unfortunate ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Let us listen to the Premier, please.

THE PREMIER:  This is a very unfortunate happening in this House.  Any party, any party, can advise any of its office bearers, or any of its representatives about certain actions that the Party deems appropriate.  This is what the IFP did in the case of the Speaker.  I advised the Speaker about what the Party had suggested he does.  He voluntarily wrote me a letter, accepting that situation.  Now ...

MR D H MAKHAYE:  INTERJECTION.

THE PREMIER:  No, no, just hang on, Mr Makhaye.  Your own Party, in many, many provinces, has been changing Premiers ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE PREMIER:  Has been changing Speakers.  Now do not be hypocritical here, do not be hypocritical here.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  What must I do?

THE PREMIER:  Do not be stupid and hypocritical.  Your own Party removed the Premier of the Free State ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order, please!

THE PREMIER:  They removed the Speaker in Mpumalanga.  We are not removing the Speaker.  We decided as a Party in the Province, to advise the Speaker, and he took the appropriate action.  So do not now stoop to the gutter, and actually spoil the Speaker's last day with us, because you are just using the Speaker as a pawn, as you usually do.  You are using him as a pawn to achieve a political point at the expense of his dignity.  We will not allow that. 

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.

THE PREMIER:  I request, this was not a matter for debate, you made an announcement, we are still going to deal with the issue of your resignation.  This is not the time for it.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Schutte, please.  Mr Schutte ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  I have purposely jumped Mrs Cronje, although she had the floor.  I think this matter should not run the way of politics.  As the Premier said, nobody should make political gain, or shall I say political moves, on this matter.  I have actually said to all of you, I bow out honourably, after 27 years as a member of the IFP.  I now bow out in compliance with the advice given to me by my own Party.  I made that clear.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, Mr Speaker ...

THE SPEAKER:  Nobody should take advantage of that and think he is going to make political ...

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  I would like to address you, and I would like to address the House, in the spirit of what you have suggested.  Mr Speaker, you have made an important announcement to this House.  We owe it to this House, if not to you, to state our case in this regard.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  I would like to, at the outset, Mr Speaker, pay tribute on behalf of my Party and myself to you.  We have always experienced you as a very courteous and as a very fair Speaker.  Mr Speaker, we must also express our full confidence in you.  We believe that you have acted in the interest and with dignity in this House, you have acted impartially, and as such, Mr Speaker ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, please!

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  You have acted in accordance with the very high position that you have in this House, and that is the position of Speaker.  We believe in doing that, you have held the interests of that very high position high.  As a result, we believe you have acted also in the interest of the integrity of this House.  We also believe, Mr Speaker, and that is what I referred to at the outset of my speech, and that is that the time at this stage is premature, eight months before an election, we believe is not in the interest of this House.  It is not in the interest of continuity to elect a Speaker now and to have to again elect a Speaker within eight months.  We believe it is not in the interest of continuity of this House.  Therefore, Mr Speaker, we would urge you to reconsider your position and your announcement.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Burrows?  A point of order, yes?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, on behalf of this Party, I formally move that in terms of Rule 104 (c), we now move to the next Order of the day.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR R M BURROWS:  A point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Point of order.

MR R M BURROWS:  One of the customs of all parliaments of the world is that in addition to the written Rules of the Legislature, there are customs and conventions that are built up through practice.  One of the practices of this House has been that when officers retire, as in the case of your brother, each Party is given an opportunity of expressing their views regarding that retirement, regarding that relinquishing of office.  That is precisely what is occurring now.  We are not having a debate, we are having a political - and presumably, the IFP will say nice things about the Speaker as well, if they can.  Now, Mr Speaker, I am challenging what the hon the Chief Whip of the IFP is doing in trying to move on to the next item in order to cut through a custom that was built up over the four-and-a-half years that we have actually been here.  I really would respectfully urge you to allow one speaker from each political party, to express their views regarding this important announcement and then to move on to the next item.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  When Mr Bartlett resigned here, each Party had the opportunity to express itself about his retirement.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  And whilst this is not a question for argument, in fact, I can ensure you, Mr Schutte, I will not be reconsidering my decision.  I will not, I repeat, not reconsider my decision to resign in the light of what has happened.  So that is not the issue.  But on the other hand, as in the case of Mr Bartlett, each party had an opportunity to express their farewells to the member, and that is all that has happened now.  I will therefore call upon the ANC, as represented by the hon Mrs Cronje, the DP by the hon Mr Roger Burrows and the PAC, whoever that may be and other parties.  Then we will close the book, as happened in the case of Mr Bartlett.

AN HON MEMBER:  Long live the Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  And I request that whatever felicitations you might have to make about me, that may be reported and stuck to and there be no question or politicising the whole issue.  This is my request.  Mr Burrows, yes?

AN HON MEMBER:  Viva, Speaker!  Viva!

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I too would like to express, on behalf of the Democratic Party, our thanks for the term of office that you have enjoyed with us, together, since the inception of this House in May of 1994.  Sir, you have exhibited what I have described as a ponderous dignity of office, but whilst in the Chair, an incredible lightness of being, in that you have brought a humour and a lightness and a laughter to this House.  We have found that dignity of office and that lightness within the House a great contrast and of great importance.  I think too, you have brought to this House the experience of your many years in the Chair in the KwaZulu Legislature, and that experience held you in good stead.

With reflection, we can reflect on what you brought in the national perspective, through the Speaker's Forum, in your contacts through the CPA, the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, at the international level, and you stood us in good stead there.  So, within the House, you stood up and you made unpopular decisions.  Unpopular with me, I will be quite frank with you.  You made some decisions that you and I disagreed very strongly about, and you know that, and I raised points of order in that connection in the past.  You raised unpopular decisions regarding the ANC and your own Party, and that is what a Speaker should have done.  I think we respect you for that.

The decision on whether you jumped, or were pushed, into this last decision that you have made, is one that we will debate at another time and I think in another set of circumstances.  But I think from all of us, we are going to welcome you to the back-room ranks.  We are going to welcome you to bring that wealth of experience and no doubt, at some point, you too will be raising points of order with the incoming Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  I hope not, Mr Burrows.  The National Party, please.  I think it was Mr Edwards.

AN HON MEMBER:  They have spoken.

THE SPEAKER:  Oh, the PAC, I am sorry.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, I am not going to go through the rigmarole.  I just want to say one thing and that is that we as the PAC and as an individual, are grieved by your sudden honourable bowing out.  Be that as it may, Mr Speaker, I want to thank you very much, as the other members have said, and you yourself said, at the beginning of this Session that at times it was difficult to continue.  We ran short of what happened in Cape Town.  It is true that as a result of the respect which the members had for you, we never experienced such a situation.  As the other members have indicated, you used your experience, your toughness and your good English and some Latin, to calm this House down.  I am sure that will be deeply missed by this House.  We are saying to you, as the PAC, welcome to the ranks.  We also appreciate your advanced age and the experience you have and the contribution you have made to KwaZulu Province, and also in the whole of South Africa.  That will be recorded in history, it will not be forgotten.

I do know that some people will want us to do their dirty work and I am not prepared to be part of that.  There will come a time when we will make our own criticisms and we may not be cajoled into making such criticisms.  For now, we want to say to you, sir, fare thee well.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  ACDP?

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, I think one of the most important jobs that a Speaker has ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!

MRS J M DOWNS:  Is a protector of minorities in the House, and I want to just say that you have done that admirably.  You have also made witty observations which I thoroughly enjoyed.  I have enjoyed being called Your Ladyship at times, I like that title.  I really look forward to hearing your debating skills as a back-bencher, because I am quite sure that they are formidable.  But I must say that I, for one, am very sad to see you stepping down.  You have brought a dignity, your demeanour and venerable age has been one which has kept order and has kept the process in the House moving forward and we have appreciated that.

I would also like to say that I really wish you well.  It was a shock to hear of your retirement, I do not want to enter into the fray until I know exactly what is going on, so I will not comment further.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Well, I did not hear what the National Party said, perhaps we will leave it at that.  Thank you very much for the kind remarks which you have made and I think we will end this matter here.  The Premier has something to say.

THE PREMIER:  We are indeed the ruling Party and he is a valued member of our Party.  It is sickening to see Dumisani Makhaye, the hon member, and some of his colleagues, exhibiting opportunism of the worst kind.  This is gutter politics, it is rubbish politics.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!

THE PREMIER:  The Speaker deserves better than that.  The Speaker deserves better than that.

HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, Mr Makhaye.  Bheki Cele, please hold your horses.

AN HON MEMBER:  Your honour, then I will give him a red card.

THE PREMIER:  It was a domestic matter within the caucus of the IPF.  You may have the letter, yes, but it was a domestic matter within the family of the IFP.  We revere, we honour our Speaker, and therefore, we decided that he should join us on the floor of this House.  There was nothing amiss with this, any party can take such action when it deems it necessary and we expect political parties not to be so sinister as to use that for political point scoring.  The dignity of the Speaker is beyond question.  He is a man seasoned in administration.  He has conducted the affairs of this House with excellence and distinction.  This resignation does not detract from that one iota.  We shall continue to respect the Speaker.  He will continue to play an important role in our councils as IFP, and when we win the provincial election next year we shall still honour him.  I thank you.

HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Premier.  That sums up this issue.  We may now proceed with the next item on the Order Paper.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND REPORTS BY THE PREMIER

I do not know whether the Premier has any announcements to make.

THE PREMIER:  I must just thank all the parties for their participation in the King Shaka Day celebrations.  These were of a high quality, very inclusive and were, I think and I am convinced, very well received by the country and the Province.  We had the National Minister for Public Enterprises present and her traditional royal status was openly acknowledged by our Province.  I hope that King Shaka Day is going to grow in importance and represent a unifying purpose for all the parties and the diverse cultures of our Province.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND PAPERS

The hon Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I have three reports from the Auditor-General's office which I would like to table.  The first one is the Performance Audit of Asset Management completed at the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration Department of Agriculture, which was signed on 9 June 1998.

The second one, Performance Audit Report of the Auditor-General on the Administration of the Wentworth and King Edward VIII Hospitals at the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration:  Department of Health, which was signed on the 28 July 1998.  I trust that the hon Minister of Health has received a copy.

The last one is the Report of the Auditor-General on the accounts of the Provincial Administration of KwaZulu-Natal:  Tribal and Community Authorities (Department of Traditional and Environmental Affairs) for the 1995/1996 and 1996/1997 financial years.

Mr Speaker, I would just like to mention that we have a meeting of the Public Accounts Committee on Friday in Pietermaritzburg, and one of the items on the agenda will be the discussion of the Tribal and Community Authorities.  This report will also be placed on the agenda for that meeting.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Volker.  Any further reports?  None.  We will proceed.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Mr Speaker.  Thank you.  Mr Speaker, on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Economic Affairs and Tourism, I just wish to table the Tourism Amendment Bill, which will be debated later in this House on his behalf.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Dr Mkhize.  Any further reports?  None.  We proceed therefore.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

I see the hand of Mr Haygarth.  Is he giving a report, or what?

MR G HAYGARTH:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I will move on the next sitting day a motion that:

	This House notes with concern the contents of the Minister of Finance's circular letter to all members dated 18 September 1998 but takes the view that the Minister was correct in sharing his views on the financial situation with all members in a transparent fashion.  This House further believes that the situation where the final results for the previous financial year reflected a deterioration of some R500m and the surplus for the current year to date, a sum of R471m (but which included Welfare surplus of 80% of that amount and which Welfare surplus was likely to be dissipated rapidly) were adequate cause for the media and the public of this Province to be alerted thereto.  This House accordingly believes that the Minister should continue to maintain a completely transparent attitude to the financial situation of this Province and share same not only with members but also with the media and the people of the Province thus removing any speculation which may otherwise arise.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Haygarth.  Then my friend over there, move a motion, yes.

MR V C XABA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I rise to move a motion without notice in terms of Rule 104:

Noting:

	the recent Press reports in which the hon Speaker of this House, Mr G H S Mdhlalose has been accused of having allowed union meetings to be held in this Chamber,

Further Noting:

*	the very disturbing public condemnation of the Speaker on Radio Ukhozi, by Pusemo and;

*	also noting the pressure brought to bear on the Speaker to resign by the IFP hierarchy:

Realising

	(i)	that the dignity of Parliament is an essential element of Parliamentary democracy;

	(ii)	the person and role of the Speaker of Parliament epitomises the dignity of Parliament;

Hereby resolve as follows:

	(i)	that this House reiterates its confidence and trust in the Speaker of the Legislature, Mr G H S Mdhlalose;  and,

	(ii)	also recognises that the Speaker has upheld the dignity of Parliament and that he has conducted the business of this House in the manner that has been non-partisan in keeping the robust debates in this Chamber;

	(iii)	that this House rejects the demand that the Speaker should resign, as there is no basis for him to do so.

THE SPEAKER:  I am afraid the hon member is arguing the case now, he is not moving a motion.  I would suggest that the member should cut short what he has to say and we proceed.  This is not the way to move a motion.  Is the hon member finished?  Thank you.  Yes, the Chief Whip?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  With all due respect, Mr Speaker, the hon member who has just moved a motion, without notice, is actually going back to a matter which we discussed earlier on this Order Paper.  Mr Speaker he is actually abusing his privilege to move a notice of motion in this House.

Mr Speaker, a further point of order, with all due respect to the hon Mr Haygarth's motion, I would like to ask that member what else he would say if he had to debate his motion, because he said everything.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, please!  Let us have order, please.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker ...

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Sit down.

THE SPEAKER:  The Chief Whip has the floor.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  I would like you, sir, to apply your mind to that motion, once you get the written record of that motion and decide whether in fact it is a motion and whether it should be taken up in the record of this House.

THE SPEAKER:  That will be done, Mr Chief Whip.  Yes, Chief Whip?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, a point of order.  The hon Mr Tarr is not here to tell us what motions to table.  That is the prerogative of each individual member and its party.  Secondly, the hon Mr Tarr is not the Speaker of this House and as long as you, Mr Speaker, are in the Chair ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order, please?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Have you no shame?  As long as you are in the Chair, we will respect you as Speaker and not the hon Mr Tarr.  If he wants to apply for the position, he had better go to his Party.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Any further motions.  Oh yes, Mrs Galea.  Order, please!

MRS C E GALEA:  Sorry, Mr Speaker, my microphone was not working.  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I will move at the next sitting day:

	That this House noting that:

	1.	The HIV/AIDS epidemic represents one of the greatest threats to the future of South Africa.

	2.	As many as 1,500 new infections are occurring daily.

	3.	It is projected that 20% of the South African workforce will be HIV positive by the year 2000.

	4.	AIDS is a huge threat to the economic and social welfare of South Africa.

	5.	Has the highest prevalence in KwaZulu-Natal with 27% of pregnant women testing positive for HIV.

	6.	With one in seven civil servants already being infected with HIV, AIDS will impact on employee benefits, absenteeism, productivity and recruitment and training costs.

	Therefore calls upon this House:

	1.	To budget for an internal and external HIV/AIDS programme.

	2.	To determine an impact assessment to determine what HIV/AIDS will do to line functions and to the capacity to deliver services.

	3.	Ensure that Life Skills curriculums, which includes HIV/AIDS is being implemented at all secondary schools.

	4.	Conduct a strategic planning workshop during which the findings of the impact assessment are translated into a strategic vision and where the necessary policy changes are identified.  

		This House must implement and support initiatives to curb the rapid spread of AIDS.  
Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Mr Makhaye, hold your peace. Thank you.  I am afraid there is a gentleman before Mr Burrows.  You are the first one, then comes the last one.  Your motion, please, sir.

MR J C N WAUGH:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day, I shall move:  

	That this House supports the Agricultural Union in this Province and countrywide in their campaign against crime and their call for a three to four month state of emergency from the 1st of November; and a Commission of Inquiry into whether the death penalty or hard labour prison sentences 
	would deter criminals and furthermore, this House regrets the absence of the MEC's for Safety and Security and Agriculture at the march of the farmers in Pietermaritzburg yesterday.

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Makhaye, please hold your peace.  Thank you.  Yes, please.  Yes, before Mr Burrows.

MR R MORAR:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of this House, I shall move:

	That due to the bad management of the Department of Education - Re -

	The number of educators
	The non-delivery of textbooks
	The fraudulent and irregular pay-outs of housing subsidies,
	Ghost Teachers and the inability to control under and over-age enrolment and the Ministers inability to improve the situation; provide this Province with quality education. This House calls for the hon Minister to resign.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, please!  I am afraid - no, Order, please!  Order, please!  Mr Burrows has got the floor.  Yes Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I thought that was my prerogative, not theirs.  Mr Speaker, on the next sitting day I shall move:

	That this House:

	(a)	States that it specifically defends the legal and constitutional right of all members of the KZN Parliamentary staff to belong to the trade union of their choice or not to belong to any union.

	(b)	Strongly condemns any slight direct or indirect to the Speaker of the KZN Legislature by any person or group purporting to challenge any of his actions regarding trade union rights for staff of the KZN Legislature.

	(c)	Requests the sub-committee appointed by the Executive Board to report fully to the Legislature on this matter at its next sitting.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  I am afraid it is the National Party - oh yes.

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Speaker, I shall move on the next sitting day: 	
	
	That this House calls upon the hon Minister of Housing to consider discounting the purchase prices and arrears of existing purchasers of houses to what is affordable to such purchasers based on a market-related interest rate and that the so determined affordable loan amounts, which have been based on a market related interest rate repayable over 30 years, then be sold to registered financial institutions at a discount cash price to ensure that:

	(a)	The Department will no longer be required to administer this old housing stock;

	(b)	The monetary saving so derived in administration and manpower costs, be used more effectively for housing delivery;

	(c)	The Department is able to use its current manpower and other resources more effectively to drive housing delivery; and

	(d)	The scope is created for the Department to streamline itself into a smaller effective unit which is able to address the housing need of our people in this Province.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Volker, please?

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, this House is obviously not a mutual admiration society.  I would like to give notice of the following motion, that:

	In the interests of fair and equitable proceedings of this KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Parliament this House expresses its view that the incumbents of Presiding Officers in this House once elected should not be subjected to party political pressure and all Presiding Officers should at all times act in a fair way to all members and especially as protectors of members of minority parties in this House.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Volker.  Yes, Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move:

	That this House notes with approval the letter of the Superintendent General of the Department of Local Government and Housing dated 17 September 1998, in which, after a joint meeting of the National Department of Land Affairs, the Department of Local Government and Housing, it had been agreed that arrear rates in R293 Townships on Ngonyama Trust Lands would be met effectively by the State through the Ngonyama Trust Board.  This ameliorates the position of local authorities concerned which have suffered serious shortages of funds through the inability to collect revenue from persons occupying such land and will ensure the continued provision of infrastructure to the previously disadvantaged communities.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Edwards.  Yes, Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, on the next sitting day of this House ...

MR D H MAKHAYE:  INTERJECTION.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Makhaye, I could say that with you.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you, Mr Makhaye, for the at least positive remark.  I shall move that:

	Noting with satisfaction the programme of the Department of Education to root out all forms of corruption such as the so called GHOST Teachers and LEARNERS.

	Therefore this House:

	(i)	applauds the Minister and his Department for the effort.

	(ii)	the members of this House and the community at large should co-operate with the Department and the teams doing that work on the ground.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I would like to respectfully draw your attention to the fact that the motion tabled by the hon Mr Xaba was a motion without notice.  Therefore it should be put to the House and I would like to express from the side of the ANC that we fully support the motion of Mr Xaba, expressing full confidence in you, as the Speaker of this House.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Just to respond to Mrs Cronje.  Every motion requires notice, except a motion whereby a notice is dispensed with in terms of the unanimous agreement of all parties.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  INTERJECTION.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  You do not have the agreement of this Party, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Chief Whip, I did not hear the last part of it, I am sorry.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  The IFP do not agree to that motion being put without notice.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  The IFP supports the idea that the motion be put without notice.  [LAUGHTER]  Those in favour of the motion say aye.  Those against say no.  Thank you, thank you, thank you.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, sorry, on a point of order ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, Mr Xaba moved that motion without notice.  You can only move a motion without notice with the unanimous support of all the parties in this House.  This Party indicated we would not support that being moved without notice.  Then, unfortunately, Mr Speaker, you moved it.  It cannot be moved, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  I apologise to the House.  I did not hear what the Chief Whip of the majority party had said.  If I had I would not have put the motion.  In that event in the light of what the Chief Whip said, I regard the motion as having not been put.  Thank you very much for that correction.  As I said, I did not quite understand what the Chief was saying.  We may now proceed. 

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, with reference to the motion moved by the hon Mr Burrows of the Democratic Party, if Mr Burrows were to move that motion in terms of Rule 104 (G) without notice, this Party would be happy to support that notice, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, it is always an ideal opportunity for a member to have a motion passed by the House.  If you like, I will read the motion again.

THE SPEAKER:  Please do, Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  If I can get it from Mr Tarr who has it in his hand.  Mr Tarr, you have got my only copy, if I can have it.  If I may read it again, and I move it then, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  In terms of 104(g):

	That this House:

	(a)	states that it specifically defends the legal and constitutional right of all members of the KZN Parliamentary staff to belong to the trade union of their own choice or not to belong to any union.

	(b)	strongly condemns any slight direct or indirect, to the Speaker of the KZN Legislature by any person or group purporting to challenge any of his actions regarding trade union rights for the staff of the KZN Legislature.

	(c)	request the sub-committee appointed by the Executive Board to report fully to the Legislature on this matter at its next sitting.
I move.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  There is a motion, therefore, I put the motion to the House.

THE MOTION AS INTRODUCED BY MR R M BURROWS IS PUT TO THE HOUSE AND AGREED TO

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr Tarr?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, at the next sitting day of this House, I would like to move as follows:

	This House appreciates and understands the problems caused by the underfunding of education and the huge backlogs that need to be addressed in this Province.
	
	Hereby resolves: 

	to commend the efforts of the Minister of Education Dr V T Zulu for the efforts he has made so far to correct these deficiencies.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mrs Cronje, any more motions?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  No, Mr Speaker.  If the hon Mrs Galea were to move her motion on HIV/AIDS as a motion without notice, this Party would very happily support it.

THE SPEAKER:  Mrs Galea has moved a motion.  The question arises whether it has the unanimous support of the House, or not.  I will put the motion, if it has not, I will not put the motion.  Any objection to the motion?  Mrs Galea, would you please put your motion.

MRS C E GALEA:  Mr Speaker, it is rather lengthy, but I think everyone knows how serious the AIDS epidemic is and I will move that this be put to the House now.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

THE MOTION AS INTRODUCED BY MRS C E GALEA IS PUT TO THE HOUSE AND AGREED TO

That this House noting that:

	1.	The HIV/AIDS epidemic represents one of the greatest threats to the future of South Africa.

	2.	As many as 1,500 new infections are occurring daily.

	3.	It is projected that 20% of the South African workforce will be HIV positive by the year 2000.

	4.	AIDS is a huge threat to the economic and social welfare of South Africa.

	5.	Has the highest prevalence in KwaZulu-Natal with 27% of pregnant women testing positive for HIV.

	6.	With one in seven civil servants already being infected with HIV, AIDS will impact on employee benefits, absenteeism, productivity and recruitment and training costs.

	Therefore calls upon this House:

	1.	To budget for an internal and external HIV/AIDS programme.

	2.	To determine an impact assessment to determine what HIV/AIDS will do to line functions and to the capacity to deliver services.

	3.	Ensure that Life Skills curriculums, which includes HIV/AIDS is being implemented at all secondary schools.

	4.	Conduct a strategic planning workshop during which the findings of the impact assessment are translated into a strategic vision and where the necessary policy changes are identified.  

		This House must implement and support initiatives to curb the rapid spread of AIDS.  

THE SPEAKER:  We will proceed with No 8 on the Order Paper.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

	8.1	QUESTIONS

Your questions are before the ministers concerned.

May I propose that I now leave the Chair.  The Deputy will continue to the end.  I will leave it to the Deputy Speaker to continue with the Order of the Day, which is a matter of listening to the answering of questions that have been put.  I hope that Mr Makhaye will hold his peace and we will have a quiet honourable and dignified ending to this session.  Thank you.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  I will try, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  LAUGHTER AND INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER LEAVES THE CHAIR AND THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TAKES THE CHAIR

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  It is a new procedure, but will the House please resume.  We will proceed with the Order Paper, Item 8.1.

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS APPEAR IN THE IVORY PAGES AT THE BACK OF THIS VOLUME.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  With that, the questions have been finalised.  In terms of the Order Paper, we need to proceed with 8.2.  I as the Speaker am still not sure what is happening, I will then request that this House gets clarity from the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee.

8.2  TOURISM AMENDMENT BILL

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, could I take a point of order.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, thank you.

MR R M BURROWS:  We do not have the Bill before us and we do not have a speaker's list on this matter.  I would suggest that this matter stands over until the next sitting, because quite clearly, it cannot appear before us now.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I am really confused as to how you go about with such business.  Like all members, I also do not have a list of speakers, and I do not have the Bill before me.  That is a problem.  I want to request the Chair of the Portfolio Committee to give us an indication of what is happening.  Can I request the speaker to speak from his seat, please.

MR A J HAMILTON:  Mr Speaker, I got given a message that there had been a problem with the amendment and it turns out that there was some confusion on the part of the Secretariat.  There is not a problem, it was a misunderstanding.  However, we do not have copies of the amendment.  They are just bringing it now, so your indulgence, if the House will give us permission.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I am happy with the recommendations.  There has been a recommendation from the hon member Mr Burrows, that in the absence of these documents the procedure is now flawed.  It has been interfered with, and the Chair of the Portfolio Committee is also suggesting that the matter stands over to the next sitting.  Mrs Cronje?  Can I give Mrs Cronje a chance first.  She was the first to indicate.  I am coming to you Mr Edwards. Mrs Cronje?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, before I make a suggestion for the way forward, I must just express my concern that the Bill is not before us.  There really is no reason why it should not be.  It is a minute amendment and the Committee has approved it.  There should be a report from the Chairperson and the Bill should be before us.  Having said that the Minister has arranged for somebody else to do it on his behalf, but the Minister does not report on behalf of the Committee, hon Mr Schutte.  Mr Speaker, I am going to propose as there is no other business for the House and we are still going to have a briefing on certain matters such as insurance policies, pensions and so on.  May I propose that we have the briefing, and that the hon Chairperson sorts out the matter in the interim.  I think it is actually important that this matter be dealt with finally.  It should have been dealt with ages ago.  There is no problem with the amendment, it has been approved by the Committee unanimously, and it should really be dealt with today.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Before you, Mr Burrows, I had indicated that Mr Edwards would be the next speaker.

MR R M BURROWS:  I just wanted to indicate that I am quite happy to withdraw the suggestion of it standing over to the next sitting.  If Mrs Cronje's suggestion is that we adjourn the House, have our presentation on these other personal matters and then come back to the Bill and a speaker's list, I am more than happy.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I get an indication from other parties.  Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, I think we should agree with that.  We have come here for a one day sitting, the amendment has come before the Portfolio Committee and there are no problems with it and I believe we are all here.  We should not waste time. Rather we should proceed as Mrs Cronje has suggested and then we can proceed with what really is a minor amendment.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I am getting an indication that almost all the members are in agreement.  Sorry, Mr Minister?

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you.  Mr Speaker, may I just apologise on behalf of the Minister for this confusion.  The Minister, as I have already indicated, is away on business. If the Speaker would kindly accede to the proposal made by Mrs Cronje, we would be very happy to try and sort the matter out and come back to this House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  As I indicated, it appears to me that there is consensus on the procedure to be followed.  I will therefore postpone this matter on Item No 8.2 and we will suspend the House before we deal with it.  In terms of my Order Paper, I am now supposed to deal with to 8.3 on the Order Paper.  The NCOP mandates.

8.3	NCOP MANDATES

The Chairperson of the NCOP?

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The voting mandate of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature on the Tobacco Products Amendment Bill, B117/98.  The KwaZulu-Natal Legislature mandates the KwaZulu-Natal Delegation to the National Council of Provinces to support the Tobacco Products Amendment Bill, B117/98, as tabled in the Select Committee on Social Services Affairs and any further amendments, providing that:

(a)	Such amendment/s does/do not alter the essential elements of the Bill;  and

(b)	Consensus is reached on such proposed amendment/s by the KwaZulu-Natal delegates, attending the Select Committee finalising the Bill, and/or the plenary session of the NCOP voting on the Bill, in the event of the proviso not being complied with, the proposed amendment/s must be referred to the Provincial Standing Committee on the NCOP for decision.

Mr Speaker, that is the first voting mandate.  The second voting mandate is the voting mandate on the Housing Consumer Protection Measures Bill, B76D/98.  The KwaZulu-Natal Legislature mandates, the KwaZulu-Natal Delegation to the NCOP to support the Housing Consumers Protection Measures Bill, B76D/98, as tabled in the Select Committee on Social Services and any further amendments, providing that:

(a)	Such amendment/s does/do not alter the essential elements of the Bill;  and

(b)	Consensus is reached on such proposed amendment/s by the KwaZulu-Natal delegates, attending the Select Committee finalising the Bill, and/or the plenary session of the NCOP voting on the Bill, in the event of the proviso not being complied with, the proposed amendment/s must be referred to the standing Committee on the NCOP for decision.

Mr Speaker, can I move those two mandates in the House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson of the NCOP.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, the National Party has already indicated its opposition to the first one, the one on the Tobacco Bill, and we again indicate our opposition to that.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, the Democratic Party also indicates its opposition to the first of the two named measures.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, Mrs Cronje?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  The ANC supports the Bills, especially the one on the tobacco measures.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, may I make one comment.  I find it rather hypocritical that the Treasury gets billions of Rand in excise duty from tobacco products and yet acts in this way.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I then do this.  The two Bills have been put.  The first Bill seems to have opposition, but it is passed by the majority.  Is that my understanding of that.  Therefore there is a mandate on that by majority vote.

MANDATE ON THE HOUSING CONSUMERS PROTECTION MEASURES BILL  -  PASSED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The second Bill.  My understanding is that there is consensus.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, on the first Bill, we would like our vote recorded against it, but I would rather then have it recorded, and we call for division.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, could we not just resolve it by putting the Bills separately to the House?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  That is exactly what I was trying to do.  My understanding tells me clearly, we have worked in this Legislature together, we know the procedures and we also know the processes and what the result is going to be. I do not want to deprive parties of their rights in terms of the Rules to also call for a division.  I cannot afford that.  Mr Edwards, you wanted to say something?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Yes, Mr Speaker, if you are prepared to put it to, and have our vote recorded against it, I am happy to withdraw the motion to have a division.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  You said if I did what, Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Have our opposition recorded against it, if you do put it to the House, as you suggested, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  That is exactly what I was hoping to do. It is a clear thing, by majority, but at the same time we record the opposition of the National Party and the Democratic Party to the first mandate.  I thought that was what we were doing.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, in spite of what my hon colleague might have said, I would wish to call for a division since I do not believe that there is unanimity in either of the two parties who are supporting the Bill, and I call for a division.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  If that is the case there is no other way, we will have to call a division.  I am now calling upon the Secretariat to ring the bells and close the doors.

ON ACTIVATION OF THE ELECTRONIC VOTING SYSTEM THE MICROPHONE SYSTEM WAS INTERRUPTED.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Not on record.

MR J C MATTHEE:  Not on record.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Matthee, please can you move over to another microphone that is working.  I have been informed that the mikes are not working due to the fact that the voting system has been activated.  Can I hear your point of order and I will decide on that.

MR J C MATTHEE:  Mr Speaker I represented the National Party at the last Portfolio Committee meeting and in fact reminded the Chairman at the time to canvas support from the different parties.  I had to remind her to find out what the different political parties stand was on that particular Bill.  I expressed my opinion on behalf of the National Party to say that we are voting against it and the hon member sitting on my right hand side is telling a deliberate lie ...

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Is that another point of order?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  That is a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  What is the point of order?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, that is a point of order.  The first point of order relates to the comment made by the hon Mr Matthee and I would request that he withdraws it forthwith.  He said that the hon member, Mr Bhamjee, is telling a deliberate lie in this House.  From the ANC's side we demand that he withdraws it.  That is the first issue.

The second point of order, actually, is taken against the hon Mr Burrows for asking for a division, because I think what we are asking of the hon Chairperson is, there is a resolution of this hon House that when an NCOP Bill attains a 75% majority in the NCOP Committee, that ends the matter.  It then does not get brought to the House.  I do not know whether there are more contenders for the position of Speaker today, but there was really no need whatsoever for bringing those Bills to the House, because we have dealt with them.  They were dealt with at NCOP level, a 75% majority had been attained, and the matter is disposed of.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Burrows, I will see all of you.  Can I just follow a certain process in relation to this matter.  There was a request for Mr Matthee to withdraw the statement that he made that the member is telling a deliberate lie.  Can I have a withdrawal.

MR J C MATTHEE:  I withdraw that remark but the hon member did not tell the full truth.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Matthee.  Mr Powell, as Chairperson of the NCOP, can you help us out of this quagmire.

MR P POWELL:  Mr Speaker, yes, I think that possibly the hon Mrs Cronje was not present at the last NCOP meeting, which is why she is under this misapprehension.  
This matter has not appeared before the NCOP Committee and we would have had to convene a meeting of the NCOP Committee after the House had adjourned this afternoon.  The practice is that when the House is in session, that matters of the NCOP be put before this House.  In terms of previous agreements, it is appropriate that we bring this matter before the House.  I can assure her that there was no political agenda, it is merely that we would have had to convene a meeting to deal with something which is in fact the business of this House.  The NCOP Committee sits and examines Bills as an organ of this House and it would be appropriate that we therefore put this before the House today.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Powell.  Let me just summarise where we are now.  Mr Ngidi?

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, I am surprised by the statement of the hon Mr Powell that these matters did not come before the NCOP.  I was present at a meeting which was chaired by him, where we deliberated over these matters and we took a vote.  The only people that did not support these measures was the National Party.  All the other parties that were present at the meeting that was held last Friday, voted in favour of the two NCOP Bills.  The statement that these matters did not come before the NCOP is an error.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I do this.  I will see you, Mr Powell, otherwise we are not going to finalise this issue.  My understanding is that we have an Order Paper.  The Whips agreed to the Order Paper and the item is on the Order Paper.  As a result this House has to deal with that item on the Order Paper.  In the process of the House dealing with this item on the Order Paper, a member of this House has called for a division.  He has stated his reasons for calling for a division, and the Rules are very clear and specific on this matter.  If any member of the House calls for a division, it shall be done.  

The only thing I tried to do was to see if I could not negotiate my way out.  I failed to negotiate my way out, and therefore I have no other alternative but to follow the Rules and to ensure that the division takes place.

I would love then for all of us to now conclude the debate by allowing the division to take its course.  We could have finished a long time ago.  I will now only allow one member to speak.  It would have to be Mr Powell, he was the first member to indicate a desire to speak, and then I will come back to you.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you.  It is in terms of the Rules and not in terms of the debate about whether it should be here or not.  In terms of the requirements for me calling a division, four members of the House have to indicate that they would support the calling of the division.  In order to pre-empt that, maybe we could first of all ask whether there are four members who would support the calling of a division.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Yes, there are.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will come to that point now.  Yes, Mr Powell.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, I would just like to set the record straight.  I think that maybe Mr Ngidi misunderstood the proceedings of our meeting.  In fact, what was discussed and what was examined was the negotiating mandate.  The voting mandate on this Bill has not appeared on the agenda of the NCOP Committee and it would have been discussed at a meeting called this afternoon.  If he cares to examine the proceedings of the meeting, he will see that we in fact discussed the negotiating and not the voting mandates.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Ngidi?

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Yes, we did discuss the negotiating mandate, but what the hon Mr Powell forgets is that we had an agreement that the negotiating mandates that we are discussing today were going to be carried over to the voting mandates.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we then do this.  In terms of the procedure, the next step is to get an indication if there are four members who support the division.  I have an indication that more than four members have requested a division and therefore I will request the secretariat to ring the bells and for the Sergeant-At-Arms to close the doors.

BELLS ARE RUNG FOR THREE MINUTES

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon members now have 60 seconds during which to exercise their votes.  You will press the white button to indicate whether you are present and then you will press the green button for yes and the red button for no.  I now put the question.  60 seconds.

ON DIVISION A MANDATE IN FAVOUR OF THE TOBACCO PRODUCTS AMENDMENT BILL IS PASSED: 29 VOTES FOR, 9 AGAINST AND 2 ABSTENTIONS. 

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The doors shall then be unlocked.  We will then proceed.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, just on a point of order, please.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Not on record.

AN HON MEMBER:  No, no let him out.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  No, you will not be able to.  We have all agreed that we will adjourn the House for other business, I will request that members please be very disciplined and remain in the Chamber whilst the presentation is being made.  We will reconvene the House again after this presentation.  The House is adjourned.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 16:50

	HOUSE RESUMED AT 17:25

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  When we adjourned, we had only one item on the Order Paper to finalise and that was item No 8.2.

8.2	TOURISM AMENDMENT BILL

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will request the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee to give a report.

MR A J HAMILTON:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Members have in front of them the amended Bill in all the three official languages.  They have got the report of the Committee.  The Portfolio Committee on Economic Affairs and Tourism has considered the KwaZulu-Natal Tourism Amendment Bill 1998, and resolved to support the Bill as introduced.  Thank you, Mr Speaker. 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you Mr Hamilton.  Can I have an indication, Mr Minister.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you.  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the Minister for Economic Affairs and Tourism, and hon members of this House, it is a great pleasure for me to introduce this KwaZulu-Natal Tourism Amendment Bill for consideration.  The Bill has been occasioned by comments received from the Auditor-General, regarding the provisions of the KwaZulu-Natal Tourism Act, relating to auditing of the books of account and financial records of the KwaZulu-Natal Tourism Authority.  The present amendment is of a technical nature and is mainly intended to improve the financial control measures for the Authority.  The Auditor-General has given its full support to the proposed amendment.  I therefore wish to thank the members of the Legislature for the interest they have shown in the matter and I would like to urge the members to support the Bill.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I have no list in front of me and as such, I will request just as an indication from each party.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the Democratic Party I would indicate our support for the Bill.  I have been requested by my colleague on the Portfolio Committee who is unfortunately ill today and cannot be present, to draw attention to the fact that there is still not a Tourism Board in this Province, despite the passing of legislation to this effect some considerable time ago, but nevertheless, sir, this Bill does not in fact affect the Tourism Board as such and we have pleasure in supporting the legislation.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  It was not a call for a division, thank you.  Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  On behalf of the National Party, I also rise to support the Tourism Amendment Bill before us.  It has logical amendments, concerning the books of account and the auditing of the financial records, but, Mr Speaker, a matter of great concern, and Mr Burrows has mentioned it, is perhaps there should be amendments concerning matters, I think, that are detrimental to the growth of tourism in this Province.  The KwaZulu-Natal Tourism Act provides for the appointment of a Tourism Authority to assist in driving the tourism initiative in this Province.  The Department of Economic Affairs the Portfolio Committee and a special sub-committee went to great efforts in calling for nominations, categorising and vetting these before making recommendations to the hon Minister.  This was at the beginning of this year, regrettably, although this was done, as I say, more than six months ago, the hon Minister has seen fit to delay the Authority on the pretext of financial constraints.  Mr Speaker, quite frankly, it does not wash, it is not acceptable.

In the past, members serving on TANK, which was the old Tourism Authority of the Province, this was on a voluntary basis, not for gain, and I am sure most nominated now would have done the same.  They did this in the interests of the tourism effort in our Province, to the benefit of tourism related economic development.  Those involved in private enterprise should be in the forefront of the tourism initiative and the present void has left tourism rudderless.  I am not casting aspersion on those who are running the Department of Tourism at the moment.  They are doing their best, but quite frankly, they are without any real help.

The hon Minister Zuma, I believe, has made a dreadful blunder, at great cost to this Province, and it seems he has a political agenda.  Maybe the people nominated did not suit him.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  There is no co-ordinated tourism development.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  We no longer receive bed levies, because it seems that enterprise is unwilling to pay in this time of hiatus.  The National Party, I believe, has a right, and so does the Province have a right, to call on the hon Minister and the Cabinet Committee to address this matter and put it right.  We cannot continue with this hiatus.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Edwards.  Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  The PAC supports the Bill.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Mkhwanazi.  It seems like all speakers have indicated their support for the Bill.  The comments that were made, I would assume will be considered.  I now have the pleasure to put the Bill to the House.

KWAZULU-NATAL TOURISM AMENDMENT BILL 1998  -  PASSED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I now request the Secretary to read the short title of the Bill.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Tourism Amendment Bill 1998.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  That concludes the business on the Order Paper.  I would assume that the following announcement has reached all hon members.  I do not remember whether it was announced, but there is a braai.  Thank you.  If that has been announced, I am pleased.

I now wish to call upon the Premier if there are any announcements he wishes to make.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  As far as I know, there are a number of outstanding Bills which we need to conclude in the course of the next sitting.  I do implore the Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees to ensure that all the procedures are timely and that there are no hitches.  Thank you very much.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  That concludes the business of today and this House therefore will adjourn sine die.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED SINE DIE AT 17:35

	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	SIXTH SITTING - FIRST SITTING DAY
	TUESDAY, 6 OCTOBER 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 14:11 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I have ascertained from my secretaries that although there is a very poor attendance, we do have a quorum.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, the position is that it is not necessary to have a quorum to open Parliament, but for a decision to be taken, you need a quorum and that is 50% of the members, plus one, which basically means 43 members have to be present to take a decision.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  That is why then we agreed that there is a quorum and we continue with the business of the House.  We will see when we come to the decisions what the position is.  Thank you very much.

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I have to report that it has been brought to my attention that one of the members of this Legislature has lost her mother and that is Mrs Ina Cronje, the Chief Whip of the ANC.  Nothing further has been brought to my attention.  I will therefore request that in line with our practice, we should observe a moment's silence.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS STAND

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  May her soul rest in peace.  The House resumes.

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  There is none.

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I have to announce that I did receive a letter of apology, written to me by the Speakers' Secretary, informing this Legislature that the Speaker is unable to attend today's sitting due to ill health.  That is therefore so reported.  Thank you.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Due to the fact that there is only one member of the Executive Council present, can I request if there are any announcements.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  I have  no announcements to make.

AN HON MEMBER:  He is just practising for next year.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Mr Speaker, you wanted an announcement from the Premier?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  I have no announcements to make.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr MEC.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  It does not appear that there are any tabling of reports or papers.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I have a notice of motion.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, I am back, fit and full of youthful exuberance.  I have a Notice of Motion, but I will defer it, it is about a declaration made by the Premier on Family Values and Husband and Wife Unity.  I wanted to ask him to promote my wife's and husband's unity in terms of his declaration, but he is not here.  Instead of parading her for political purposes and six months later she will attack them.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi!  Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I give notice that on the next sitting day of this House, I shall move:

	Noting:

	The unexpected and drastic cutback in subsidies to independent schools, proposed by the ANC for gazetting, is extremely irresponsible and will result in the further breach of trust between the Government and the independent school sector and will place a greater financial burden on the state.  

	This step is further proof of the ANC's inability to manage the educational system.  It is legally and morally unacceptable and will plunge parents and students into a serious financial crisis during the run-up to final examinations.  

	This totally immoral action is just another manifestation of the ANC Government's obsession to destroy any legacies of the past even though they may be centres of excellence now for the benefit of all South Africans, and in the process continue in the path of destroying Education, Health and other services and to build a new socialistic order from the ruins.  

	The move also exhibits a total lack of understanding of the financial implications.  At present parents of pupils at independent schools make a substantial contribution towards the cost of educating their children and if they are now forced to go to government schools, the full cost will have to be borne by the taxpayer out of the Education budget.

	This House demands that the Ministers of Education, National and in KwaZulu-Natal, intervene, thus allowing thousands of pupils to complete their academic year and that independent schools are given a reasonable opportunity to do proper financial planning for the next year.  Thank you, Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Edwards.  Hon member?

MR R MORAR:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move: 

	That the Minister of Safety and Security call on the Premier to appoint a commission of enquiry, looking into the conduct of members of the SAPS stationed at Chatsworth and Phoenix police stations.  
	
	The allegations are that:

	(a)	at Chatsworth, members are involved in cash heists, murder, non-response to call out by the public, and the removal of official police dockets;  and

	(b)	at Phoenix, the illegal removal of corpses from the state mortuary to private undertakers.

	These allegations are not in the interest of the SAPS.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Waugh?

MR J C N WAUGH:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move: 

	That due to the fact that Parliament has been forced to convene on a matter previously dealt with, at considerable wasteful expenditure to the taxpayer, estimated at R20,000. due to a total lack of communication between the Leader of the House, Chairperson of Committees, Chairperson of the Health Portfolio Committee and the Chief Whip.  

	This House calls on these persons to give a written report on the reasons for this fiasco and if satisfactory explanations cannot be given, that the responsible individual, or individuals tender their resignations.   

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Any more notices of bills or motions?  It does not look like we have any more notices of bills or motions.  We therefore continue with No 8 on the Order Paper.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY.

8.1	NCOP VOTING MANDATE:  TOBACCO PRODUCTS AMENDMENT BILL

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  We have to decide on the NCOP voting mandate on the Tobacco Products Amendment Bill.  I do not know, I just want to establish whether we do have a quorum or not.  Can we establish that.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  On a point of order, the point at which the quorum has to be established is the point at which the division is called, not now.  So once the bells have been rung and you have seen who is in the House after the three minutes, you can ascertain your quorum, otherwise you cannot ascertain your quorum.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  In other words, you are suggesting we must continue with the debate until we come to it.

MR R M BURROWS:  That is exactly what I am suggesting.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  I will therefore, in the absence of a list of speakers, request the Chairperson of the NCOP to then lead the discussion.  The hon member Mr Powell.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I have a report in the form of a resolution from the NCOP Standing Committee, Resolution of the KwaZulu-Natal Standing Committee on the NCOP, October 6, 1998, that this Committee, noting the report of the Portfolio Committee on Health, regarding the Tobacco Products Amendment Bill, B117B-98, recommended that the Bill be referred back to the House for a decision.  That this House mandates its delegates to the NCOP to oppose the Bill.  I would like to make that report.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The report has been made.  As I have indicated there is no speakers list in front of me.  I am looking for direction.  Chief Whip, where do we go?


MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the report of the Committee has been presented by Mr Powell.  Essentially it represents a reversal of the decision of this House and you would need to put that to the House, Mr Speaker.  I am not sure whether a division would be called for, but if you would put it to the House and a division is called for, you would need to ring the bells and then determine if a quorum is present.  You would normally put it to the House now, Mr Speaker, and if a quorum is present ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, there was no formal decision amongst the Whips on the debate.  It was mentioned that each party could introduce one speaker if they so wished.  If that is your decision now, Mr Speaker, we can commence with the debate on the Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Matthee?

MR J C MATTHEE:  The National Party would like to debate this matter on the Order Paper.  So can you give me your ruling.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Matthee, I would find it very difficult to rule that there would be no debate on the Bill.  It appears to me that this is a Bill and there is an amendment to the Bill.  I think the implications of the Bill have been put forward by the hon Chief Whip, therefore I would say that my understanding is that there should be a debate.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, yes, we would support that.  If that is the case, I would assume that representing the majority party I would be the first speaker and you would then simply go seriatim through the parties.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Let us then continue and do that.  Can I depend on you to time yourselves so that you do not monopolise the debate.  Mr Tarr, you will be the first speaker.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I am not quite sure of the time allocations, but I would think that 10 minutes per party, or 10 minutes per speaker would be sufficient.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Tarr, can we just straighten this matter out.  The first thing I think that we need to be clear on is that each party is going to speak, but each party will have only one speaker.  We will also, in terms of timing, I would prefer that we do not exceed the 10 minutes.  It is too much for others, but I think please, can we have somebody speaking in a conservative manner as much as possible.  Mr Tarr?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, this debate today is basically to overturn a decision which this House previously made, and as such, is a fairly unusual procedure.

Mr Speaker, at the outset, I believe that as the ruling party, it is necessary that we concede that this debate is taking place because of the ruling party and also concede that it is taking place because we in fact decided to change our minds on this particular Bill.  There were various errors which crept in when we originally voted on this Bill.  We were informed that in fact a decision had been taken at our caucus in Cape Town, that the Bill was supported.  It has since transpired that that was not the case and it has now given us an opportunity ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, you know, there is a situation, if you make a mistake in this world, it is best to concede it, then try and put it right.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  If the peanut gallery over there wish to chirp, there is nothing much I can do about it.  Mr Speaker, the situation is that there were a number of us who did have reservations about this particular Bill.  We apologise for the fact that various members have been inconvenienced and this House has been inconvenienced in having had to come back here today.  We are sorry for that, but it is best to put something right once a mistake has been made.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, if we actually look at the Bill itself - I am actually speaking in Mr Bhamjee's interests here, because he is one of the heaviest smokers in the House and Mr Jeffery's interests, because those two members, if they had a free choice would much rather be on this side of the House.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Let us have order.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, as I have said, some of us on this side of the House are grateful that we have now been afforded the opportunity to revisit this particular Bill, because we are no longer bound by a decision which was made elsewhere.

Mr Speaker, if you look at the actual Bill, first of all, this Bill has not been subject to public hearings at all.  I can hear that side of the House when it has been previous Bills, saying with their hands on their hearts, "How can this bit of legislation be considered without a public hearing?  Do you not understand what your democratic, and Constitutional obligations are?  There must be a public hearing".  I can see members on that side of the House saying that with their hands on their hearts.

Mr Speaker, in order to short-circuit this particular Bill, what do we see?  We see the Minister introducing it through NCOP.   Suddenly, when a Bill goes through NCOP, you know NCOP is a House of lesser importance and we do not need public hearings.  But yes, if something goes through the House of Assembly, then we definitely do need public hearings.

This is one of our serious reservations about the Bill, that there have not been public hearings and we do not know what would have transpired at those public hearings.  How can we be expected to make a decision on this, in all fairness, without having listened carefully to what the public have got to say.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Now if the shoe was on the other foot, Dr Sutcliffe would be making exactly the same speech.  So, Mr Speaker, there is the question of the public hearings.  Let me then add, Mr Speaker, that there are many aspects of this Bill that we obviously do support.  We do recognise that smoking is a health hazard.  We do recognise that it is something that should not be encouraged.  With that in mind, we would agree with the question of restricting advertising.  The question of smoking in public places, we would agree with that.  But there are serious reservations on other aspects of the Bill which have not been properly considered and addressed.  For example, what about sponsorship?  We are told that a blind eye will be turned on this, and this will be phased out, or whatever it is.  But that is actually not good enough, Mr Speaker.  What we really need is that the position on sponsorship and those issues are clearly dealt with in the Bill itself.

Then, Mr Speaker, we wish to argue the technicalities of the process which occurred in this particular House.  On the day on which we voted on the Bill in this House, you will remember, Mr Speaker, that we used the electronic voting system.  On the electronic voting system it was recorded that there were 40 members present in the House.  28 voted for and I think nine against, with two abstentions.  That is the official record of the House which has been taken up in Hansard.  There is no other official record of the House.  There might have been other members in the House at the time, which I concede, but they were not officially recorded.  That being the case, in a legal situation, the judiciary would actually refer - and Mr Jeffery, you are a lawyer, you should know this - the judiciary would actually refer to the written record of the House, which is the Hansard and the minutes of this House.  These will reflect, 40 present, 28 for and nine against with two abstentions.  So, Mr Speaker, there is a very serious question mark over the legality of the decision that was taken in this particular House.

Secondly, Mr Speaker, in terms of the Bill itself, this House actually voted on Bill 117.  The Bill which is actually before us and before NCOP tomorrow, is going to be Bill 117B.  Now Bill 117B incorporates amendments to Bill 117, which theoretically could have made us vote differently.  What I am saying, Mr Speaker, is that the Bill before the House, which we voted on ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  The Bill before the House which we voted on, is not exactly the same Bill as before.  So, we believe that there is a very good reason for us to reconsider this particular Bill in the House today, for the reasons I have set out.  The public hearings, the lack thereof and the process which we followed in the House previously.  But of course, from the ANC point of view, they may of course be interested, particularly Mr Bhamjee may be interested ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  I have it on very good authority, I have it on very good - Mr Speaker, can you protect me against the peanut gallery there.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order.  Order, please!

MR M A TARR: Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, that there are other provinces who happen to misguidedly support the ANC, who in fact also do not support this Bill.  For example, I would not be surprised if Mr Bhamjee has been doing some canvassing in Gauteng and the Eastern Cape and the Northern Cape ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

MR M A TARR: Chief Whip):  Mr Bhamjee, I understand.  Mr Speaker, there is one speech being made in this House, I believe, not Mr Bhamjee's, but mine.  Presumably he will have a chance later on.  I think that he has been canvassing these other provinces very well, because I understand they are also going to vote against the Bill, unlike the parrots on that side, like Dr Sutcliffe, who simply listens to what ...

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Hon Speaker, that is unparliamentary.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, who simply echoes what his master's voice says from Cape Town.  We on this side, are capable of exercising some independent thought now and again, which we are now doing, and of course, that Party does not know what that means.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  So, Mr Speaker, on a final point, the merits of this ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, there are two meetings going on in this House at the same time.

AN HON MEMBER:  Her master's voice.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, one also wonders to what extent it is the responsibility of the Government to step in and act in loco parentis for the whole populous.  "You will not smoke because it is bad for you".  The next thing, that is the thin end of the wedge, "You will have your water fluoridated because you need it".  "There will be no drinking advertising because it is bad for you", then you will see Dr Sutcliffe moan.  [LAUGHTER]  Close down the Firkin.

Mr Speaker, it is just the principle involved in this draconian type of action where the Government can actually step in and destroy a major industry, without proper consultation and without public hearings, and I think that is good enough reason for us, Mr Speaker, to review our position in this House.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Tarr.  Can I have somebody from the - yes, Mr Felix?

MR F DLAMINI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, if I had time, I would actually entertain your House by telling you the story of how I stopped smoking.  Be that as it may, I need to respond to my colleague over there.  He has created the impression that this is a new Bill, just because there is a "B" attached to the 117.  I think the legal people could easily explain that if a minor amendment is made to a Bill, then you add a letter to the number and do not change the number.  That is exactly what has happened.

I also need to put the record straight in this House.  Not all of us have been exposed to the Bill and not all of us know what the briefings have been and not all of us know how much information has been presented to the NCOP by the submissions.  Yes, the Bill emanated at the NCOP and there is nothing preventing any Bill from starting at the NCOP.  Rule 124 of the Rules of NCOP does make this provision.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

We also need to emphasise that the Bill -if people will need to be informed, they should rather listen - the Bill was published in the Government Gazette during August and there have actually been three briefings on this Bill at NCOP level.  There have been more than 13 submissions that were invited and were presented to the NCOP.

At the second briefing, quite a number of organisations made submissions, verbal submissions and written submissions.  In my report to the Committee on the 22nd, I actually had a pile of all the submissions that were made to the NCOP.  I asked the members if they would like to have copies of all these.  In my report I commented, on four submissions that were made, which I singled out as very important submissions.  Some of these very strongly supported these amendments and others agreed in principle that there should be amendments, but we are talking about the adjustment of the regulatory machinery.

Submissions were made by the Medical Research Council, the Tobacco Institute of Southern Africa, the Food and Allied Workers Union and the Tobacco Action Group.  Those were the main groups that I mentioned, including the Applied Fiscal Research Centre at the University of Cape Town.  All these groups also presented their submissions in person and were represented.

Mr Speaker, having said that, it then becomes clear that the process that has been followed by the NCOP has been quite in order.  The NCOP invited provinces to have hearings and I think the Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees, in the various provinces, will not deny this.  Whether this was done or not, but they would actually say yes, we did receive the information and of course, there may be some excuses that may be made why the hearings were not held.

Mr Speaker, on 22 September, the Health Portfolio Committee met and proposed six technical amendments and two substantive amendments to the proposed Bill.  I was mandated to go and negotiate these amendments with the other provinces in Cape Town, which I did, and they were accepted.  These were from this Province.

On 25 September, the KZN NCOP voted 75% in favour for the approval of the Amendment Bill, the Bill that we are talking about.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR F DLAMINI:  On 30 September, your House, Mr Speaker, approved a voting mandate on this Bill.  There are a few intriguing issues about the voting in this House.  There is a question on the voting on 30 September.  We would like to assume that the quorum was ascertained before the voting was done.  This is the normal procedure that this Parliament follows and I cannot believe that on that particular day it was not done.  I assume it was done.

It is also known, Mr Speaker, that on that day the electronic recording system was used for the first time in the Chamber.  If the quorum had been ascertained, then probably there must have been some mistake in operating the buttons of the electronic system.  The members are not used to it, which then suggests that the voting was well calculated, and I would also like to assume that your hon House voted for something that they knew.  Nobody in this Chamber can turn around and say, "We were not too sure what we were voting for", because if your House was not too sure what they were voting for, they would have stopped the voting there and then and said, "Mr Speaker, we would like to go back and look at the Bill once again".

It is also worrying, Mr Speaker, to hear that the IFP feels that they made a mistake on 30 September, by approving the voting mandate because they were not aware that their representatives in Cape Town had not taken a decision on this matter.

Another great concern is that the majority of the people who are arguing against this Bill are people who are not in the least interested in promoting the health of the South African people. They are actually interested in the capital gain and therefore they are supporting all those people who are fighting for the loss of capital.

HON MEMBERS:  Nearer my God to Thee.

MR F DLAMINI:  Speaker, in closing, I would like to quote from our Rule book, because I would like to say to you, there was no need for us to bring this matter back to this House, because it has already been discussed in this hon Chamber.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR F DLAMINI:  I would like to refer you, Mr Speaker, to Rule 103(1) on the same question.  It reads as follows:

	No matter shall be proposed for discussion in this House which is the same in substance as a matter that has been discussed in it during the same Sitting.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR F DLAMINI:  I am not going to read the other paragraphs.  I think that paragraph is more than relevant to the matter under discussion.  Therefore, that being the case, I propose that we stick to the mandate that was given on 30 September 1998.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Dlamini.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, on a point of order ...

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  What is the order, Mr Tarr?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  I assume that later on, Mr Speaker, the Rule which was raised by the hon Mr Dlamini, you will allow us to debate that issue, if that becomes germane to the discussion.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, I do not think I will allow it.  The Rule is in front of us, we will interpret it and we will see what it means.  I think other members of this House will also touch on it.  It may not even be necessary.  Yes, Ndabezitha.

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA: 
TRANSLATION:  Hon Speaker, no, I wanted to convey that the good comrade saw that we keep quiet on this side when someone is talking.  They should not make a noise while others are talking.  Thank you.  T/E
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Matthee?

MR J C MATTHEE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  

MR J C MATTHEE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  On 22 September, the Portfolio Health Committee met in ~Ulundi~ and there the National Party voted against this Bill.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

MR J C MATTHEE:  It was only the IFP and the ANC that voted in favour of it.  I am very pleased to see, today, that the IFP is going to vote against this Bill, but I still question their sincerity.  Today there are less than 20 members of the IFP sitting in this Chamber.  So I still question as to whether they will really oppose this Bill.

This Bill is moving away from a simple health issue.  The real issue that the ANC is propagating is the question of health.  I do not think there is anybody in this Chamber who has not got a problem with that, but what they do not talk about is the question of whether this Bill is not touching the very nature of the freedom of choice and attacking the principles of a free market economy.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR J C MATTHEE:  This draconian measure of the ANC Government threatens the loss of thousands of jobs ...

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Point of order.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Is that a point of order?

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Will the hon member take a question?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Matthee?

MR J C MATTHEE:  Mr Speaker, I will take a question when I have completed my speech.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  You may then resume your speech.

MR J C MATTHEE:  Mr Speaker, this draconian measure of the ANC Government threatens the loss of thousands of jobs as well as the marketing, media, advertising and promotion industries.

AN HON MEMBER:  The ANC never created jobs in any case.

MR J C MATTHEE:  So, the question is, where does the ANC draw the line?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR J C MATTHEE:  Mr Speaker, so the question is, where does the ANC draw the line between individual rights and community interests.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR J C MATTHEE:  Sir, it is a fact that the use of tobacco products is harmful to one's health.  There is no dispute about that.  It is also a fact that smokers have accepted the principle that no smoking should take place in public places.  But as has previously been mentioned by the hon member Mr Tarr, hardly any consultations have taken place so far.  The Freedom of Commercial Speech Trust letter dated 30 August clearly states that no consultation has taken place between that organisation and the Department of Health.  But what are the effects of the Bill?  

If we look at the definition of a work place, the definition of a work place, means, that even your own domestic servant who works for you every day in your home, can object to you the owner of the house, smoking.  Sir, what a ridiculous situation? If ever there was a Bill with ridiculous, incompetent drafting, then it is this Bill.  This is the typical thing that we have got to work with daily with this ANC Government.

If we look at the question of advertisement, what does it entail.  The Bill reads as follows: "No person shall - advertise using tobacco trade marks, logos, brand names or company names on tobacco products"  etcetera.  Sir, this means that if you wear a T-shirt with Gunston written on it, you can be fined a minimum R200,000 because you are advertising a tobacco product.

AN HON MEMBER:  How are you going to do that?

MR J C MATTHEE:  Sir, how ridiculous can one get?  If we look at the next one.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MR J C MATTHEE:  It prohibits the private communication between tobacco manufacturers and tobacco distributors.  For instance, sir, the companies will not be able to use their own letterheads between various companies.  The importation of foreign periodicals and magazines.  Sir, what is this Government going to do about that?  We have numerous, dozens of magazines ...

AN HON MEMBER:  They are going to ban them, they are going to ban the magazines.

MR J C MATTHEE:  That are imported into this country advertising known tobacco brands.  What are we going to do about that?  What are we going to do about television.  If you watch a particular sport, or a Grand Prix that advertises tobacco in your own home, what is the Government going to do about that.  Yet, our own television and our own distributors of magazines are not allowed to advertise tobacco products in their magazines or in their programmes.  

Sir, you take a ridiculous situation.  It was featured in the Sunday Tribune on Sunday where a young nine year old was puffing his cigarette sweet.  Now we all know that when we were children we used to buy those sweets.  Even that where it advertises Lucky Strike, those people will be fined R200,000 for Lucky Strike sweet cigarettes.  How pathetic can we get?

Sir, the effect is that some 35,000 workers will lose their jobs.  Some R300 million will be lost in advertising revenue.  This Government will lose some R2,1 billion as far as taxes are concerned.  Sir, I want to say to you, that if the ANC Government is serious enough, they will increase, not reduce, the minimum age limit for children to purchase cigarettes and not keep it at 16, but increase it to 18.  Because after all, you cannot buy liquor under the age of 18.

HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR J C MATTHEE:  You cannot vote under the age of 18.  The National Party's recommendation is that this should be increased to the age of 18.  

The Department of Health should embark on a programme at schools and colleges to educate people about the dangers of smoking.  We would support that fully.  To give you an example, in Norway and in Finland, after 20 years of abolishing advertisements on bill- boards, in magazines and on television, they found that there still was a dramatic increase of smoking amongst the youth.  So therefore not to advertise on bill-boards, on television or in magazines is not going to help.  The child looks at the parents, his peers at school, that is where he starts smoking.  Those are the people who have influence on a child.  That is where we should start to convince those children that this is the right way to go because smoking is bad for you.  So if the ANC is serious about it, that is what they should do.

But then they say there is no money.  My reply to them would be to stop all the corruption in the Government, then you will have enough money to pay for such a programme in our schools.  Sir, I would advise the ANC to rather pay attention to the crime and corruption that is raging on in this country, the poor health services and the poor education services that exist in this country.  Those are the issues that they should be addressing instead of who is allowed to smoke and who should not smoke.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Burrows?  There was a member who indicated that he would like to pose a question.  Can we allow that member to pose a question.

MR J C MATTHEE:  I will take a question.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Will the hon member confirm to this House that in the 1970's and in the 1980's, the National Party rebated sponsors to the tune of 60% and 90% respectively, to promote ~Apartheid~ sport and to bring hardships onto the people.  Will the hon National Party speaker comment on that and furthermore, will he also comment on whether he will request his members who are getting double pensions to forfeit those?  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR J C MATTHEE:  Mr Speaker, unfortunately the question does not relate to this Bill at all.  I think the hon member is being quite ridiculous, because I cannot remember what the National Party did 15, 20 years ago, I do not remember that at all.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, shall we then allow Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I would like to congratulate the ex-chair, United Party Chairperson of the Provincial Council on his speech.  Obviously he is distancing himself from the National Party activities over the past few years.

Mr Speaker, the Bill is once again before us, and the Democratic Party is pleased about it, because obviously when we called for the division on Wednesday 30 September, we knew that we were, together with those who voted against the Bill, on the correct side of the House.  Like the Bible says, we must congratulate the sinner that repenteth his ways and the Party that changes its views.  So, well done.

Sir, on a procedural matter, the Rule 103 quoted by the speaker from the ANC, refers to a matter not being raised in the same Sitting.  If he checks, he will find that the definition of Sitting is what is occurring today.  What happened last Wednesday was another Sitting.  Altogether, they make up a session, and five sessions make up a Parliament.  That is the procedural Rules of this House.

Sir, the division that occurred last Wednesday - and this has been conceded quite correctly, because it is factually correct -that there were present in the House at the time, some 58 members of this House.  An electronic vote was called for and those who had bad finger work could not press their buttons properly, and there must have been some on that side of the House as well as on this side of the House.  Forty members indicated that they were present.  26 then voted in favour of the Bill, 9 voted against the Bill and two abstained.  Now that is only 37.  So three persons who marked themselves present then did not vote in favour of the Bill or against.

The interesting thing, Mr Speaker, is that that vote of 40 present, 26, nine and two is the vote that is reflected in the proceedings of this House.  It does not reflect the 58.  That may well be incorrect, but the legal procedural point that any lawyer will tell you is that the Judge will take what is in the records of the House as being that, unless attention is drawn to it, and that is what is raised.

Sir, we also have a situation in which the Bill serves before the National Assembly.  The National Assembly Portfolio Committee has, after having called for written submissions, now decided to have public hearings on the matter because it is controversial.  Members of the ANC in that Portfolio Committee have themselves spoken out against the Bill.  So there is a public hearing and it is going to be a controversial consideration.  I predict that this Bill will not be passed this year and I doubt whether it will be passed before the general election, because it is a very unpopular Bill in some circles.

What is the NCOP being asked to do and what are the provinces therefore, in terms of the NCOP, being asked to do?  They are being asked to exercise a vote in favour of a piece of legislation that is controversial, on which there are yet to be public hearings, on which the National Assembly has yet to decide what to do with it.  Sir, it is, to coin a phrase, a little bit ...

MR W U NEL:  Topsy-turvey.

MR R M BURROWS:  Topsy-turvey.  I was going to use another phrase, but thank you, Mr Nel.  Mr Speaker, the Bill itself has, as has been pointed out, features that are attractive, and here I speak on behalf of a caucus that is 100% non-users of tobacco products.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, a point of order, please.  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, a point of order, Mr Edwards.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, the hon Mr Nel is interjecting from a seat which is not his own.  I know he wants to hold Mr Burrows' hand, but would he not rather take his own seat?

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.  We must decide that the NP and the DP must fight their battles outside this House and not disturb the others.  [LAUGHTER]  

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, that hon member referred to me as Mr Rajbansi, I am the most hon member in this House.  [LAUGHTER]

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, Mr Edwards' point of order, I think, is entirely superfluous since there is no Rule which prevents Mr Nel from sitting where he is sitting.

Mr Speaker, the opposition that we as non-users of tobacco products are giving to this Bill is not in terms of our opposition to tobacco and smoking.  In fact, Mr Jeffery and Mr Bhamjee are the greatest smokers in this House.  Mr Jeffery, I think, has the record for giving up the most as well as starting again and giving up and starting again.  We have a fundamental problem in terms of the social engineering of this Bill, of what Nanny ANC is attempting to do.  It is attempting to ensure that the entire nation of South Africa falls into a pattern of behaviour because they say it is right ...

AN HON MEMBER:  Nanny Zuma.

MR R M BURROWS:  And I want to tell you, it is not right.  I want to urge you, to go and talk to your Sports Federations, the hon Mr Bhamjee, and they will tell you they support sport advertising because it funds their sport activities.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Will the hon member take a question?

MR R M BURROWS:  At the end of what I have to say, if there is time.  Go and talk to the Agricultural Workers Union, FAWU.  I have asked the ANC this question, what about FAWU's opposition, and the answer I got is that FAWU have been ensured that there will be no loss of jobs because tobacco sales will still continue.  Sir, this is a hypocritical Bill.  It is hypocrisy from top to bottom, from Mr Jeffery and from Mr Bhamjee, who are great smokers.  It is hypocrisy.  From the ANC, it is hypocrisy, because they are assuring their own workers they will not lose their jobs because tobacco sales will continue.  It is an entire cover-up.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR R M BURROWS:  Let us make it quite clear that if you are going to cut back on tobacco sales, there is one guaranteed way only, and that is by raising taxation.  Raise the sin taxes, treble, quadruple, increase proportionately all the taxes on tobacco, on liquor, then you will get the added money.  But this from a party that will attack tobacco sales, before they address nuclear power, before they address acid rain in Mpumalanga, before they address coal power stations and their work, before they ban leaded petrol.  No, sir, this is hypocrisy.

At the end of the day I am very pleased we are having this debate.  I am very pleased that the majority will vote against this Bill, as I am sure it will do in the National Assembly.  I must finally say, however, that it is to be regretted that we are today debating, at a single sitting, the necessity of this measure, not of this measure, but the fact that we have earlier this year had sittings prevented by the Executive because they were too costly.  Debates on Richmond, debates on public violence.  Sir, I cannot deprecate it strongly enough.  The whole dispute between the Premier and the Speaker earlier this year was on that particular issue.  Sir, if we are going to learn anything by this, we must meet more often and we must have more debates like that.  That is what Parliament is for.

MR F DLAMINI:  Mr Speaker, I would like to rise on a point of explanation in terms of Rule 74.  I am saying this because I know the hon Mr Burrows is really clued up on the Rules, but he has actually said Rule 103 is irrelevant in this case and in terms of the definition of a Sitting, it is absolutely relevant, because there is a difference between a Sitting and a sitting day.  If you look at your definition on the very first page, it says:

	"Sitting" means a meeting or a series of meetings, which need not necessarily be held on consecutive days, convened to deal with specified business and which terminates when no further government business remains to be considered at that Sitting.  

This is the Sitting that is actually referred to in Rule 103.  I wanted to make that explanation.  As I said, I know he is clued up, but he probably missed that one.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, if I may rise in response, and I know the hon Mr Bhamjee wishes to pose a question to me.  If I hold up the Order Paper, it actually says, "Hours of Sitting".  This is a single sitting, last week was a single sitting, that is what the definition ...

MR F DLAMINI:  That is a sitting day, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The explanation has been given on how the member has interpreted the Rule.  There has been a response from another member, also clarifying his interpretation of the Rule.  At the end of the day we will deal with that, but in the mean time, are there any other members who wish to speak on this debate.  Mr Rajbansi?

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  I intended posing a question to the hon Mr Burrows.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Unfortunately he did say that if there was time, and he has exceeded his time.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  There is no doubt about the fact that those who engage in the bad habit of smoking encourages little children, in particular, to participate in this obnoxious exercise of drug abuse.  Mr Speaker, one cannot doubt the noble intention of the hon Minister of National Health, to bring this country on a course where we will have a sound  healthy nation.  There are certain aspects, which have been highlighted by other hon speakers, which require attention.

Just today, we received a circular on public participation.  We have a clause in the final Constitution on public participation and the Minority Front is of the view that the Government must take a well balanced and well considered decision.  We have heard of this dictum, plan with the people, do things according to the wishes of the people.  It has been mentioned that the exercise of public participation has not yet been completed.  I am of the view that it is not fair for us to deal with this matter, at this stage, through the NCOP, until such time that we have had a broad based public view.

Mr Speaker, in 1956, the African National Congress, at that time decided to reduce the consumption of smoking in this country, but there was a difference.  They decided to engage in an exercise to reduce the consumption of cigarettes that were owned by members supporting the National Party.  But I once met Dr Rupert, after that, and he was smiling, and he told me that during the boycott campaign, his turnover actually really increased.  I do not know whether the hon Mr John Jeffery smokes that so-called National Party product, I do not know what he smokes, but I have seen him smoking Rembrandt Van Rijn and Peter Stuyvesant, which is regarded as National Party products.

AN HON MEMBER:  He smokes other people's cigarettes.  [LAUGHTER]

MR A RAJBANSI:  But whatever it is, I once listened to an excellent lecture, by a great swami who visited this country from India and he asked us what the definition of a cigarette was.  A cigarette or a cigar, according to that swami, is a cylindrical object with fire at one end and a fool at the other end.  I do not want to say that my hon colleague, Mr John Jeffery, satisfies that definition of a cigarette.  The question was raised that if we are going to ban advertising on television, what about the regular advertising of cigarettes on overseas programmes. 

Last year, Mr Speaker, there was a controversy in Australia where the Pakistani cricket team was advertised Mills cigarettes while they were playing and the Pakistani Cricket Board of Control refused to remove that advert from their clothes because according to them cigarette advertising plays a very important role in cricket.  What happens if India or Pakistan visit this country and they are sponsored by a cigarette firm.  We would like to get public input as far as that is concerned, but I do not doubt the noble intention.

The hon Mr Roger Burrows suggested other measures of curbing smoking, like raising the taxation, etcetera.  But we also had arguments to the contrary that if you raise taxation on cigarettes to an unnecessary limit, then we are going to encourage the illegal importation of cheap cigarettes from neighbouring countries or overseas.  It is for these reasons, Mr Speaker, that I am of the view that we should not take a decision at this stage or until such time that the entire country has been given the opportunity to express their view.

The hon President of Zimbabwe was an advocate against smoking and a new building was built for the auctioneering of tobacco, in his country.  He was requested to officially open it.  He gave his health reasons why he was opposed to smoking, but he said smoking is a fact, smoking is a reality and that is why he agreed to officially open such an institution for the expansion of the tobacco industry.

The other issue which people are complaining about is that, and you know, Dr Fidel Castro helped this country a lot, and their main crop is tobacco and they are relying on the South African market for increased sales.  I do not say we must encourage that.  I feel that we are not yet ready to take a well balanced and well considered decision and the Minority Front will abstain.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  The only other party that is present in the Chamber is the PAC. [Ndonga, these minutes are for you to drive it in, sir].

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  If I had my way, I would not even debate this Bill, because personally, if I were to express my views now I would say there is no need even to debate this Bill.  This Bill should just be upheld and supported unanimously.  That is my personal view, because I hate smoking.  I have lost my voice and I think it is because I sat next to people who were smoking in Pretoria over the weekend.  

But be that as it may, I do not think there is a need for me to make much input, rather than to say that we support the Bill basically on the question of health.

I hear mention was made of people who are going to lose their jobs, but if the people have been affected by smoking and are dead, what jobs are they going to lose, because they themselves shall have lost their lives.  Mind you, the Bill does not say it bans smoking.  In fact it does not affect the people who smoke.  It does not target the people who smoke, the aim of this Bill is to protect the non-smokers.  They will be protected from smoking.  This is how I understand the Bill, that there should be no smoking in public places.  There should be no smoking where non-smokers will be forced to inhale tobacco.  I think that is the basis of this Bill if I understand it correctly.  If then there is any other hidden agenda, I do not understand it.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  As far as my party and I are concerned,  I think there are many people who are opposing the Bill because they support a certain political line.  That is unfortunate.  Well, of course, there are people who are only thinking about the material gain and loss.  Shops do sell many cigarettes.  I believe that anybody who has a business, whether it is a spaza shop, or what do you call it, a stokvel, or a tuck-shop, you know that the best things that sell in those shops is Coke-a-Cola and cigarettes.  Well, people are doing their business, so let us not justify that on the basis of health.  We of the PAC, at national, voted in favour of the Bill and here we will support the Bill on the basis of health.  We think health is more important than business, health is more important than advertisement, sponsors for sports, because the sports people who inhale smoke, are not even able to run, because their chests and lungs are full of unwanted smoke.  We therefore support the Bill.  I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much from the hon members.  We have come to the stage where we need to decide on this Bill, on the resolution as suggested by the NCOP.  I will therefore request that ...

AN HON MEMBER:  You cannot take a loss, you cannot take a loss, man.  Bad losers, bad loser man.

AN HON MEMBER:  Anti-democracy.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, may I explain, with your permission, that if I leave the Chamber it is because I am abstaining, that is my reason.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I beg yours?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I want to make a request.  Now, I will still continue and make that request.  I will adjourn this House for about 10 minutes, during which time I would like to consult with the Whips.  Yes, Mr Tarr?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  You did mention to me, and I do not think you would mind if I repeated a personal conversation, the purpose of the adjournment would be to decide on the interpretation of Rule 103, so we could reach some agreement as to whether this is a Sitting or not.  I think that was a fair reason, Mr Speaker, and something which could avoid a debate later on.  But the situation that faces us right now, Mr Speaker, is that we could adjourn and discuss that, but it would actually be irrelevant, because there is not a large enough quorum in this House to make a decision.  It would be a purely academic matter whether we decided on that or not.

Mr Speaker, I would like to then take this matter somewhat further, relating to the situation that faces our delegation when they go to Cape Town tomorrow, because an argument which has been put by the hon Mr Burrows and briefly mentioned by myself, I believe that argument is now relevant.  In the absence of this House having been able to make a decision, the earlier argument is relevant, and that is that our delegates are going to Cape Town and I submit, Mr Speaker, are going there with no mandate from this House at all.  They do not have a mandate to vote for this Bill, they do not have a mandate to vote against the Bill because of the recording of the voting which took place and has now been taken up in the official record.  I submit then that the only opportunity open to this House is in fact that our delegation to Cape Town tomorrow will need to abstain.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, I would like to address you on that very point.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will allow all points of view to be heard.  I was following a certain process because I needed to clarify something with the Whips.  I will also ask that all members addressing this House now, also address that issue that they are satisfied that it will no longer serve any purpose to have this consultation in relation to the interpretation of Rule 103.  I would like us then to take a formal decision that there is no longer a need for that process and we then proceed with the matter.  Mr Tarr?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I would support that.  Then, Mr Speaker, at the conclusion of that, I would seek leave to move a motion, without notice, in terms of Rule 104(g), relating to the behaviour of the ANC in this House today.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I crave your indulgence.  We have on the one hand, a programme to improve the image of this House.  There have been comments about waste of taxpayers' money.  While parties are entitled to abstain and walk out, the responsibility to pilot this House is that of the majority party, and a rough count shows that 31 members of the majority party are not present here today.  It is a shame that not a single Minister from the majority party is present to discuss this matter, when the leader of the delegation comes from the majority party.  I am not being negatively critical, but I think it is of grave concern that when we have in this Province the Programme of Good Governance, the majority party, the IFP should set an example.  They should set an example.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Whatever it is, they should ensure that their members are present to ensure that we do not have to adjourn because of the lack of quorum.  I am not attacking the IFP negatively, I am doing it in a positive way, advisedly.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, you have made your point. Thank you.  Can I get an indication from the National Party, the DP the PAC, whether you are happy that we do not proceed with that consultation in relation to the interpretation of Rule 103, because it no longer will serve a purpose, and that you also address the question of how we are to proceed from here, please.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, I would just like to put on record, what I believe is the correct situation with regard to the mandate.  The sad fact is this, that this Parliament, when it convened in ~Ulundi~ on Wednesday, had a quorum, whether that was electronically recorded or not, nobody here who was there would doubt that this Parliament had a quorum.  Now, to argue that for some technicality, that for some reason it was electronically recorded or not, that there was not a quorum, that is not correct.  The fact is that at that stage Parliament had a quorum and nobody at that stage disputed that.  So I am afraid that as far as that is concerned, that technicality cannot stand and it would not stand in any court.  For that reason I am sad to advise Parliament that Parliament has erroneously, in the circumstances, due to the fact that the major party was erroneously informed, made a mandate and that mandate stands.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Burrows, yes?

MR R M BURROWS:  The situation regarding whether last Wednesday's voting was a quorate vote or not must be a matter for a Parliamentary legal advisor, not for members of the House, either Adv Schutte or myself, however much we might agree or differ on what is being said.  Once that opinion has been given, that is the opinion that must be, I think, conveyed from the Speaker to the delegates that have to go to Cape Town.

Mr Speaker, I would agree there is not much sense in following the course of action that you were suggesting and I would suggest that we carry on with the proceedings as is being suggested.  I am not certain that I should not also reflect on the fact, as Mr Rajbansi has done, that it is unfortunate that the majority party has less than 50% of its members present.  Well we certainly insisted, throughout the time that I was in the House of Assembly, that it is the majority parties, as it was with the National Party, it is their responsibility to create a quorum.  It is not the responsibility of any of the opposition parties.  The tactic that the ANC have adopted here, has been adopted by a number of other parties in a number of other legislatures, it is a perfectly normal Parliamentary tactic, whether we like it or not, that is another issue.  But to create a quorum is the majority party's problem, I am afraid.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Burrows, you do not seem to have indicated where we go from here.  If you are saying that we should get a proper legal interpretation of where we stand, that is the problem that we are sitting with.  Is this Sitting separate from the Sitting that we have had before, or is this  a continuation of the previous Sitting?  If we could get an interpretation of that.  Do you have a say on that?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, there is one reality, that is if you rang the bells for three minutes, 43 members would not arrive in this House.  Now accepting that as a reality, the next reality, quite frankly, is to adjourn the House.  Anything else would, I think, be a continuous waste of time.  What happens when you adjourn the House and the events between today and tomorrow, I am afraid are between yourself and the legal advisor, the Chairman of the NCOP.  Those are the responsible parties.  It is not the House, and quite frankly, I am not going to even suggest a solution to it.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, I stand here with a heavy heart.  Maybe we are in the wrong profession.  I do not want to go into the legalities, those are for our legal advisors and our legal people in the Chamber.  I just want to speak on a matter as a member.  I am terribly disappointed by the actions of the ANC.  That is procedurally correct, as Mr Burrows said, but at the same time I think the ANC have been let off the hook by the activities of the majority party, those are the people that have let us down, because they are present.  They are the leaders of this Province and they should show leadership.  I have said that before.  They should all have been present.  As has been mentioned, there is not even one single Minister present from the ruling party.  What do we the small representatives do, because the good governance of this country depends on the majority party.  This must be a very good lesson, because if the majority party had been present, there would have been a quorum.

If we believe in democracy, why are we afraid of losing the vote.  It is a democracy.  If you run away from losing the vote, are we not running away from democracy, about which we boast so much, a democratic, non-sexist, non-racial, non-bla, bla, bla.  When it comes to the crunch we should accept the evil of democracy, as the undemocratic people usually say, then we run away from it.  It is unacceptable as far as I am concerned.

Therefore, Mr Speaker, I will throw the ball into your and your advisors court as Mr Burrows has mentioned, because there is nothing we can do.  In my mind it definitely costs money to send a delegation to Cape Town, just for them to go and abstain.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Are they going to go free of charge to Cape Town?  Only to go and say that there has been no decision in our Legislature on this matter.  How about that, instead of spending money for people who are going to say, "We abstain from KwaZulu-Natal".  It is ridiculous, Mr Speaker.  I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Both members are from the same party, but I think we must come to a decision now.

MR V A VOLKER:  It is on a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, give me the order.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, the correct procedure would be the following: a debate has been held, a decision is pending.  The correct procedure for you as Presiding Officer is to put the motion and if the point is raised that there is no quorum, then that becomes an issue.  I would like to address you on that particular issue.  It might be that the Rules of this House did not consider the circumstances, but I will read to you exactly what the clause says.  It says in Clause 18 of the Rules:

	The presence of at least one third, or, when a vote is taken on a Bill -

and that is relevant,

	When a vote is taken on a Bill, of at least one half of all the members of the Legislature other than the Speaker or other presiding member, shall be necessary to constitute a sitting of the Legislature.

The Rules do not stipulate that there must be 50% of the members if a vote is taken on a mandate.  We are not voting on a Bill.  Consequently, if a third of the members are present, a valid vote can be taken to give a mandate to the representatives when they go down to Cape Town.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, if I can corroborate what Mr Volker is saying in terms of the Constitution, Section 112 (1) provides that:

	In terms of decisions of a Provincial Legislature, except where the Constitution provides otherwise:

		(a)  a majority of the members of the provincial legislature must be present before a vote may be taken on a Bill or an amendment to a Bill.

And that, presumably, is a Bill before the Legislature.

		(b)  at least one third of the members must be present before a vote may be taken on any other question before the Legislature.

I would argue, and I think that is what Mr Volker's point is, that what we have before us is a resolution from the NCOP to reject, or to accept a matter in Cape Town.  We do not have a Provincial Legislature Bill before us, or an amendment to a Bill, so I would suggest we move to a vote.

MR P POWELL:  Mr Speaker, the resolution is so worded, it is not a Bill, it is a resolution and it follows the form of our standard resolutions - mandating resolutions.  The issue which I have here before the House, it is not a Bill, but a resolution.  Mr Speaker, would this be the appropriate time for me to move the motion?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Just one slight thing.  Mr Burrows, the Rule you were quoting, can you repeat the Rule?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, it is in the Constitution.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Oh, in the Constitution, I see.

MR R M BURROWS:  The Constitution, it was Rule 112.  Sorry, Section 112(1)(a);

	(a)	a majority of the members of the provincial legislature must be present before a vote may be taken on a Bill or an amendment to a Bill;  and

	(b)	at least one third of the members must be present before a vote may be taken on any other question before the Legislature.

I argue, and Mr Volker argues that it is any other question we are looking at, we are not looking at a Bill or an amendment to a Bill and one third of the House, again by Mr Volker's dead reckoning, is 29, and I think we are 31.  Please anybody, do not leave.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, just a further point of order.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Edwards, yes?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  I do not know if we resolved the issue totally and we do not want it to be brought up again, on Rule 103, whether this is the same Sitting or not.  The way I interpret it, last week we had a Sitting and the House was adjourned sine die and therefore that Sitting was over and this is a further Sitting altogether.  I think you need to resolve that that is the issue.  We do not want it to be brought up again to say it is part of the same Sitting.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I do not think I would have wanted to open that debate here.  It is a very tricky debate.  That is why I had said that if we had had to decide on that we would have needed to sit down with the Whips and the legal experts in order to define today's sitting.  That to me is not the issue, therefore, the issue as it stands, which has been raised, is whether we are debating a Bill, or whether we are debating a resolution on the Bill.

Mr Powell, I want to suggest that we proceed as follows: the resolution as proposed will be read and we will decide on that resolution.  Following that the Whips and I will look into the matter as to what it means and give it a proper interpretation because I do not want us to come back again and decide that technically there was something wrong elsewhere.  To me that is the only way forward and once we and the Whips have interpreted that, we will make a decision.  So you will read the resolution as proposed.

MR A POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

	Resolution of the House.  

	Voting mandates agreed to by the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature on the Tobacco Products Amendment Bill [B117B-98].

	The KwaZulu-Natal Legislature mandates the KwaZulu-Natal delegation to the National Council of Provinces to oppose the TOBACCO PRODUCTS AMENDMENT BILL [B117B-98] as tabled in the Select Committee on Social Services, and any further amendments, providing that:


	(a)  such amendment/s does/do not alter the essential elements of the Bill and;



	(b)  consensus is reached on such proposed amendment/s by the KwaZulu-Natal delegates attending the Select Committee finalising the Bill and/or the plenary session of the NCOP voting on the bill;

	In the event of the proviso not being complied with, the proposed amendment/s must be referred to the Provincial Standing Committee on NCOP for decision.

I move.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The resolution has been moved.

MRS F X GASA:  I second the resolution.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, I just wanted to say that that resolution has been moved and I now put the resolution to the House.

THE RESOLUTION ON THE VOTING MANDATE ON THE TOBACCO PRODUCTS AMENDMENT BILL [B117B-98] - PASSED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  As I have indicated how we are going to interpret all of this is going to be a subject for discussion. This will be done by the Whips, the Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP.  That to me will find a way of how we channel everything forward, avoiding all the technicalities that may be a hinderance.  Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, I hope it is recorded that I voted against the resolution.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  You have a right to have said that and now it will be recorded.  Before you had said that, it would have been recorded.  We have also recorded the abstention of Mr Rajbansi, I hope.

AN HON MEMBER:  The Raj is going to look for a new wife.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  This now concludes this debate.  Can we have order.  Order, please!  This now concludes this debate and according to the Order Paper I do not have any further business for today.  I do not see the Premier and I do not see any MEC.  I will therefore assume that there are no reports that the Premier would like to make.  I therefore adjourn this House sine die.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 15:46 SINE DIE

	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	SEVENTH SITTING - FIRST SITTING DAY
	TUESDAY, 10 NOVEMBER 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 14:40 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, ~ULUNDI~.  THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Chief Whip?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I note that the next item on the Order Paper is the election of our new Speaker and in order to clear the decks to do that I would like to formally move, in terms of Rule 104(g) of our own Rules:
	
	That, arising out of Section 111(4) of the Constitution:

	We, the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature, noting that the Speaker of this House, Mr G H S Mdhlalose tendered his resignation on the sitting of this House held on 30 September 1998 in ~Ulundi~; hereby resolves as follows:

	(a)	to accept the Speaker's resignation as tendered;  and

	(b)	to acknowledge that such resignation has created a vacancy in the position of the Speaker for the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature.
  
Mr Speaker, I would like to formally move that without notice.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!
 
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  In terms of Item No 2 on the Order Paper, which is the election of the Speaker, to be taken together with the proposed resolution by the Chief Whip, I feel that we should get an indication from all parties before I call for a decision.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  In terms of Rule 104 and to enable us to comply with the constitutional requirements as set out in Section 111 (4) of the Constitution, the ANC has no objection in supporting the resolution as tabled by the hon Mr Tarr.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I hear from the National Party?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, the National Party has listened to the Chief Whip and we support the resolution as set out.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The DP?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, the Democratic Party will support the resolution as tabled.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Minority Front?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, the Minority Front supports the resolution.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The PAC?

MR M D MKHWANAZI: Mr Speaker, the PAC supports this proposal].

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The ACDP, thank you.

MRS J M DOWNS:  The ACDP supports the resolution as set out.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  There is an indication that all parties support the resolution.  I therefore now formally put the resolution to the House.

THE RESOLUTION AS PROPOSED BY MR M A TARR - AGREED TO

2.	ELECTION OF THE SPEAKER

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  As members are aware and have agreed that the Speaker has resigned, in accordance with Rule 19 of the Standing Rules of the Legislature, I would like to, on behalf of the Secretary, inform you that the necessity has arisen therefore to elect a Speaker.  Such election shall take place forthwith.

In accordance with Section 111 (2) of the Constitution, the President of the Constitutional Court has designated Mr Justice J H Howard, Judge President of the High Court in KwaZulu-Natal, to preside over the election.  We welcome Mr Justice Howard to our Legislature and thank him in advance for the service that he will render to the Legislature today.

I will now call upon Mr Justice Howard to conduct the election and as such will vacate the Speaker's seat.

MR JUSTICE HOWARD:  Thank you, sir.  I declare the election open.  Will the returning officer and the assistant returning officers come forward to take the prescribed oath.  Please raise your right hand and read the prescribed oath, sign it and hand it to me.

RETURNING OFFICER AND ASSISTANT RETURNING OFFICERS SWORN IN

MR JUSTICE HOWARD:  I am advised that nomination forms have been issued to the political parties.  I now call for the nomination of candidates on the prescribed form to be handed to the returning officer.

THE SECRETARY:  They have already been handed to me.  The form is satisfactory.  The name nominated is Bonga Nkanyiso Mdletshe, proposed by ~Inkosi~ James Nyanga Ngubane and seconded by Joel Sibusiso Ndebele.  I am satisfied with the requirements.

MR JUSTICE HOWARD:  In view of the fact that a single candidate, Mr Mdletshe, has been nominated, in accordance with Schedule 3, part A, Item 5 of the Constitution, I declare him elected Speaker of the Legislature. [APPLAUSE]

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  [INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER]

THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED

THE SPEAKER:

3.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

THE SPEAKER: 

TRANSLATION:  Firstly, I think it is important for me to convey my gratitude to those in charge of elections.  I also would like to convey my gratitude to members of this Assembly of KwaZulu-Natal for its trust in me, such that they granted me this task.  
I hope that I will use the talents you recognised in me with honesty and fairness amongst you so that our nation may benefit and so that this Legislature may continue its work honourably.  
I think that for me to successfully discharge my duties and to please all present and similarly to please the people of KwaZulu-Natal, I will need the support of this Assembly.  Where I have made mistakes, I hope that you are free to confer with me with the aim of building the nation.  Therefore, I do not have much to say for I did not expect this, but I hope that what you have done for me, you did because maybe you recognised a talent I possess and you trusted it.

I wish and hope that as I fill the shoes of my predecessor, a man of great stature, my feet will grow day by day so that they may ultimately be able to fill those shoes comfortably.  I will do all this because of your support for me.  Respect within this House is of the utmost importance, because it is what brings about the dignity of this House and so that people may see that what we do, we do for the benefit of the nation and we do it with determination and commitment.

I will apologise in that this language is the preferred language that I will use here, with the hope that those interpreting will convey what I am expressing.  With these few words, hon members, I am grateful.  T/E

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, I did not want to interrupt you while you were speaking, but I think it is a great pity that those of us who do not speak Zulu were not given the opportunity to hear your first speech, because we did not have earphones.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you for that, Mrs Downs.  I will try my best to translate what I said.  I have extended my warm thanks to the members of this Legislature for entrusting me with such a high position.  I hope to do my best to achieve your objectives.

And further, to thank the electoral officers for the manner in which they conducted the election and further to thank the members.  I hope that the trust which you have bestowed on me, I will try my best to achieve that.  I hope that you will support me and where I make mistakes, I am an open man, I hope that you will assist me, because our aim is to achieve and to assist our communities.  I therefore expect your assistance in whatever way in order to achieve.  I therefore thank you, all of you, thank you so much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  At this moment I would like to thank the Judge.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, I would like, on behalf of the National Party, to congratulate you on your election to this very high position.  Mr Speaker, you are the supreme custodian of the democratic values and traditions of this House.  You have to act independently and impartially.  From now on you belong to the whole of Parliament and not to any particular party.  You are also accountable only to Parliament and not to any party.  

In the final analyses, you are also responsible for the smooth running of this Parliament, and that is a very onerous task.  I would like to give you the assurance on behalf of the National Party that we will give you all the assistance that we can to ensure that you uphold these very valuable traditions, and also to ensure that this Parliament runs very smoothly.  I wish you all of the best.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Any other parties?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the Democratic Party I would like to extend our congratulations to you on the assumption of this high office of the Legislature.  As has been pointed out, you are now, as it were, the father of this House and will lead us in the true area and direction of democracy.  We trust that the traditional office that you also hold, will not prevent you from seeing that the public representatives who are here before you, whilst we are not of traditional office rank, are also desirous of expressing their views and maybe at times differing from those of traditional office rank.

Mr Speaker, we also wish to point out that one of the most difficult tasks that you inherit and take upon your shoulders is a history of speakerships, that certainly in parliaments around the world go back over 1,000 years.  There have been speakers in the past who have lost their heads when they fought with kings and with executives.  You, sir, hopefully, will not lose your head, but will keep your head, whilst fighting with kings and with executives on behalf of this House.  Once again, we congratulate you on your appointment.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the ACDP I would really like to congratulate you on your appointment to such high office and just to remind you that minorities are a very crucial part of any democracy.  Your office is the protector of minorities and we hope that you will take that absolutely seriously and that you will uphold our rights, as I am sure you will.  Congratulations.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, thank you.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the PAC, we congratulate and greatly applaud you for being elected to that Chair.  As my colleagues have already said, we believe and hope that you will properly manage this House and move it forward, although we know quite well that at times you will be in difficulty when the oxen break lose and go astray right in front of you.  

It is incumbent upon you to restrain them and move them forward.  Moreover, as an ~Inkosi~ of the nation, you are accustomed, Ndabezitha, to people sitting before you so that you show them the way.  Let us hope, Ndabezitha, that as an ~Inkosi~, it will not happen that when we have been worrisome to you here in Parliament, you will then summon us to your court and find us a cow and a calf.  Thank you.  T/E

THE SPEAKER: [If you will respectfully handle ~Ubukhosi~].

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the Minority Front, I wish to congratulate you on your election to this very high office.  Let the message go out, throughout the length and breadth of KwaZulu-Natal and also to other provinces, that your mover and seconder belong to the two major parties that are beginning to close ranks for peace in this Province.  The very fact that you were not elected by one or two political parties, but by the will of all the members of this Legislature.

In addition to the words that have been expressed, one of your major tasks will be to jealously guard what we often debate about, is the independence of this Legislature.  The clear line of demarcation between the Executive and the Legislature and I want to repeat what the hon Mrs Downs has stated, that convention, especially in the English Parliament which is regarded as the Mother Parliament, that the main task of the Speaker in the Legislature is to protect minority political parties.  I am sure like your predecessor, you will continue on that road, in spite of the fact that you may have temporarily lost the robe to your seat.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Mr Speaker, I also want to add the voice of the ANC in congratulating you ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  I am sorry, Mr Speaker, you are talking to the future government and therefore it demands attention.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Mr Speaker, we also want to congratulate you on your unanimous election as the Speaker.  It is not a very comfortable seat.  It is a very lonely seat.  It is much more lonely than that of the Premier, because he is always surrounded by his party, but you are going to rule against this ANC, you are going to rule against that IFP, you are going to rule against ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport): [Leave him alone so we can finish, sir].  There cannot be more urgent things than when the ANC speaks.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER  

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Mr Speaker, I am saying that yours is a very, very lonely position, because you are going to have to stand for fairness.  Fairness does not go in terms of numbers or majority, it goes according to what is right and your election here, unanimously, attest to our belief and our confidence that you are able to stand up for the truth, no matter who it hurts.  It is a very lonely position, but you are assured of our support, however you rule, as long as we know it is fair.  We want to give you our assurance that we will support you, we will talk to you, we will be able to point out things that we are not happy with and we hope that they will receive your fair mind.  We thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MR D P MFAYELA:  Mr Speaker, [Mr Speaker, I respectfully ask you to give Felgate and Bheki red cards, they are not wearing jackets.  They must go out and wear them].

THE SPEAKER: [I think that for the task to begin properly, maybe let us give the hon member a chance and deal with errors later on].

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  Mr Speaker and the hon House, I would like to inform your hon House that you are a man of integrity, well behaved and well disciplined.  Before ~Inkosi~ took over his ~Ubukhosi~ position, he was a magistrate and therefore he has a legal background as well.  At present, ~Inkosi~ is the Chairman of the Hlabisa Regional Authority, and before the elections in 1994, ~Inkosi~ was also a member of the former KwaZulu Government.  Besides that, ~Inkosi~ acted as our Speaker during the time when both the Speaker and his Deputy were not well.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.
. [Yes, you were absent and that is why I am telling you, because you were absent].

During that time, ~Inkosi~ was appointed as the Deputy Minister of Correctional Services, which Department was placed under the Department of Justice.  That is why after the elections in 1994 ~Inkosi~ is a member of the Provincial Legislature.  He has the necessary qualifications and I regard him as being suitable for this important position.

~Amakhosi~, Mr Speaker, are always there to lead, they were born to lead.  That is why we have decided to place you in that important position, because you were born to lead.  You are going to lead this hon House.  But for the sake of preserving proper parliamentary procedures and traditions, the following statement is to be made by myself:

It is acknowledged that -

1.	The Speaker of Parliament is the ultimate custodian of democratic traditions of Parliament and as such, the Speaker should act independently and impartially.  I think it is how we always go about as ~Amakhosi~, even if we try cases, even if we go about with our administration in rural areas, we are always impartial.

2.	The Speaker belongs to, and is accountable to Parliament and Parliament alone.  Not to any political party.  I think ~Inkosi~ is going to do that, because he used to do it during the time of the former KwaZulu Government.  As I have said, it is not the first time he has been in the position of Speaker.

Therefore, we would like to thank you, ~Inkosi~, especially the most important party here, IFP, for nominating you with the support of other parties in order for you to become the Speaker of this hon House.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  It is very important for me to thank the hon Judge J A Howard, Judge President of the High Court in KwaZulu-Natal for presiding over the election.  I thank you so much, sir.  I will therefore ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort the Judge out of the Chamber.

JUDGE HOWARD ESCORTED FROM THE CHAMBER

THE SPEAKER:  The House resumes.  On the Order Paper.  We are on Item No 3 of the Order Paper, obituaries and other ceremonial matters.

4.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the IFP have a new member who is waiting outside.  I request your permission to escort him in and have him sworn in as a member.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I crave your indulgence.  I have an objection from the people of Chatsworth.  A lady from Chatsworth was promised this position if she leaves her husband.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER: TRANSLATION:  I hope that the member who just walked in has before him the paper on which to make the oath.  You will fill in "I", and then your names, you will then read it as it stands.  At the end you will raise your right hand and say "So Help me God" and sign it.  T/E

MR ELLIS THEMBA VEZI SWORN IN

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

THE SPEAKER:  No announcements.

6.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

THE SPEAKER:  The hon ~Inkosi~ Ngubane?

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  Mr Speaker and the hon House, the Premier has left no messages, but I would like to extend his apology for failing to attend this important Provincial sitting this afternoon, it is due to official commitments.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

7.	TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS

MR D H MAKHAYE [Greeting in the Swahili language]. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Makhaye ...

MR D H MAKHAYE:  I table the report of the Finance Portfolio Committee, Report on the Quarterly Budget Review, 1998. [Greeting in Nyanja langauge]  [LAUGHTER].

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, the hon Mr Aulsebrook?

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you.  Mr Speaker, I would like, as Chairman of the Premier's Portfolio Committee to table the Committee's reports on the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Language Bill as amended, the report on the KwaZulu-Natal Gambling Bill as amended and the Bill amending the Regulations of Horse Racing and Betting Ordinance of 1957 as amended.

THE SPEAKER:  It seems as if there are no other reports.  Then we move to Item No 8.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, I am rising on a point of order.  The House was not told the name of the new member and we will have a problem in addressing the hon member.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER: [When the hon member was taking the oath, Mr Mkhwanazi, he mentioned all his names and he even stated who he is].

MR J D MKHWANAZI: [Apologies, Ndabezitha.  It is because he was facing that way and he was not speaking into the microphone].  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  His name is Ellis Themba Vezi.  Thank you.  Let us continue.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order as well.  Mr Speaker, looking at the Rules of this Parliament, we have arrangement of business and Rule 80 sets out the basis for arrangement of business.  The arrangement of business in terms of the Rules are through the Chief Whip, in consultation with other parties and the Leader of the House.  We did last week agree that we would have today, on the Order Paper, questions.  On the Orders today there are no questions from members and, Mr Speaker, if one looks at questions in terms of the Rules, Rule 144(4) does state that:

	...the Secretary shall place the questions on the Order Paper in the order which they were handed to him....

Mr Speaker, I believe this is taking away the right of members to ask questions in this House.  There are questions for oral reply, also provided in terms of Rule 145(2) I take in particular that:

	Questions for oral reply should be limited to two questions per member per question day.

This inhibits the right of members at the sitting which is scheduled for 1 December to ask questions for oral reply.  I do know questions for oral reply were submitted to be on today's Order Paper.  There are questions for written reply.

AN HON MEMBER:  Plenty.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  There are plenty, and I believe there are questions that have not been answered as yet and we have the right to have them for oral reply as well.  I would like to place on record the objection of the National Party to the process before us.  We must not let this happen again.  I hope that when we get to the sitting which is scheduled for 1 December, that we are allowed to ask questions.  Perhaps the Whips can agree that we allow more than two oral questions and put that to the House, because we need to ask those questions and be fully answered.  It is not our duty to come to this Parliament and do nothing.  We owe it to the public and it is our duty to ask the necessary questions.  I trust, Mr Speaker, you will take heed of this.

THE SPEAKER:  I will ask the hon member Mr Tarr to assist.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I can only think there has been a misunderstanding somewhere.  When the Whips discussed today's sitting and the sitting on 1 December, it was agreed that we would make provision for a question period.  In carrying that out I was under the impression that the agreement was for 1 December and I can only assure Mr Edwards that we have agreed to that and that will be done.

THE SPEAKER:  You have had an explanation from Mr Tarr.  The item on questions will be dealt with during the December sitting.  We had better continue with our Order Paper as it stands now.

8.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Haygarth?

MR G HAYGARTH:  I give notice that I will move on the next sitting day:
	
	That having regard to the fact that the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism has publicly conceded that he signed RDP and Peace Projects under duress:

	this House resolves:

	(a)	that all projects so signed be declared invalid;
	
	(b)	that all funds issued to such projects be recovered;  and
	
	(c)	failing recovery the remaining funds illegally advanced be recovered from Minister Zuma.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Mrs Galea?

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  At the next sitting day of this House I will move:

	That this House noting that:

	(a)	the Premier's Peace Committee has been reconstituted

	(b)	every citizen is free to make political choices, which include the right:

		(i)	to form a political party, 

		(ii)	to participate in the activities of, or recruit members for a political party and

		(iii)	to campaign for a political party or cause.

	Therefore calls upon this House:

	1.	to ensure that the leader, (or the representative) of all political parties sign a peace agreement or code of conduct which will ensure that there will be no political "no-go areas", 

	2.	that this agreement is advertised on Radio, TV and in all the newspaper publications throughout our Province.

	3.	that this agreement will be binding on all.

I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Any other motions?

MR R MORAR:  Mr Speaker, I move:

	This House takes note of the resignation today of Mr William Mnisi, national Deputy Leader of the DP and congratulates him on his vision of joining the New National Party, and so demonstrating his desire to be a member of a "truly democratic party" and reject being part of a party representing the white elitist minority.  I move.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Another motion?

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, if there are further notices of motion I will just stand back.  I have just been given an Auditor-General's report.

THE SPEAKER:  Motions?

MR J C N WAUGH:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day I will move:

	That this House rejoices that today (10 November) is the ninth commemoration of the collapse of the Berlin-Wall and that this occasion also symbolised the collapse of Communism as an international force; and

	this House further recognises that the last remaining vestiges of Communism still limp along in Cuba and South Africa and that, that has contributed largely to the massive increase in unemployment and the imminent collapse of GEAR. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Any other motions?  Okay, I will then give the hon Mr Volker his chance to table his report.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I request the indulgence of the House to revert back to Item 7: Tabling of Reports and Papers.  Not through my fault, but the Secretariat has just handed to me a report of the Auditor-General on the accounts of local authorities in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal for the 1995/1996 financial year.  This has been handed to the responsible members of the Executive and to the Speaker and I wish to table that.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Then we will move on to Item No 9.

9.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

9.1  NCOP VOTING MANDATES: TOBACCO PRODUCTS AMENDMENT BILL.

THE SPEAKER:  I will therefore ask the hon member Mr Powell to address us on the NCOP.

MR P POWELL:  Voting mandate agreed to by the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature on the Tobacco Products Control Amendment Bill B117F/98.  The KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature mandates the KwaZulu-Natal Delegation to the National Council of Provinces to oppose the Tobacco Products Control Amendment Bill B117F/98 as tabled in the Select Committee on Social Services.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  I will therefore give each party a chance to respond to the motion.  Any response?

DR L J T MTALANE:  Mr Speaker, the IFP resolved to oppose the Bill.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR F DLAMINI:  Mr Speaker, this Bill has somehow broken a record, because it is coming before this Chamber for the second time, the third time in fact, and on the two previous occasions we made it categorically clear that we are in favour of the Bill.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR F DLAMINI:  It is a bit strange to notice that people do accept that smoking has got harmful effects, not only for the individual who does smoke, but more so to people who do not smoke.  Yet, when we find a mechanism to reduce that danger, financial considerations come first and people's lives are made very cheap. People have got no interest in the future of our generations that the Act proposes to protect.  We are therefore opposing this resolution.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  INTERJECTIONS!

THE SPEAKER:  The National Party?  Order!

MR J C MATTHEE:  Julle maak te veel geraas hier.  Mr Speaker, as the hon member has just mentioned, this Bill has been debated a number of times.  We from the National Party oppose this Bill for the very reason that this has been the most draconian Bill that has ever come before this Parliament.  In fact, in all my life, in public life, I have never seen such draconian legislature coming before any Parliament.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  INTERJECTIONS!

MR J C MATTHEE:  Sir, I want to say that the industry is going to lose thousands of jobs.  It imposes a fine, a penalty of R200 000 on an industry for advertising, whether it be a T-shirt, a billboard or an advert in a newspaper or magazine.  But sir, what do we do with the magazines that are imported into this country that have cigarette advertisements in them?  What are we going to do with the programmes on TV that advertise Malborough, for instance, when you watch the Grand Prix?  This is the ridiculous situation this feeble ANC Government has created.  It is quite ridiculous that this ANC Government has not got anything better to do.  They should be looking into the poverty of the people of this country, providing houses and providing jobs.  Instead they are dabbling over issues which have got nothing to do with them.  To control my life, to tell me where I must smoke and where I should not smoke, I think is totally iniquitous.  And for that very reason, we, the National Party, will vote against this Bill.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  DP?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, in a time of excess I would have thought that at least when we were talking about the most draconian measures we would have reserved it for the Racial Classification Act and the Group Areas Act and the Mixed Marriages Act.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!  

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, from the Democratic Party's side, as my colleague over there has said, this has come before us three times, we are now on the third occasion expressing our views once again.  We are opposed to smoking, we do believe it is a health hazard, we are however opposed to the Bill as it stands before the Legislature and we will support the amendment.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  The Minority Front?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, we have problems with the Bill.  We support that in principle smoking is bad and people should not be encouraged to smoke cigarettes or any other thing.  In Australia there was a problem where a foreign cricket team were advertising Mills cigarettes.  Advertising was banned in that country and the team refused to leave the field.  There was a predicament like that.  We felt that the Government should phase out these adverts and banning, etcetera.  We regard cigarettes as a cylindrical object with fire at one end and fools at the other.  We will abstain.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  PAC?

MR J D MKHWANAZI: 

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I do not believe that the PAC will involve itself in this matter.  I think we should abstain instead of proceeding with this thing, because just listen, beautiful Africans.

I cannot speak the truth, I do not properly understand this thing.  We, the PAC, from the onset, supported the Bill and now something else is coming back before us.  Unfortunately for me, I have not consulted, I do not want to engage myself in something without proper understanding.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE SPEAKER:  ACDP?

MRS J M DOWNS:  It is not often the ACDP finds itself on the same side as the ANC.  We do not support this resolution and we thoroughly support the banning of smoking and the Bill as it has been tabled.  We actually would like to add though that we hope the ANC will not be schizophrenic and start legalising things like marijuana, as there has been some talk.  Maybe we should be looking at alcohol and its effect on family life, because that also causes deaths and accidents and distress and probably as much as, if not more so, than smoking.  We should ban alcohol advertising as well.  We do not support this resolution.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  We have come to the end of the debate on this - order, please.  We have come to the end of this debate.  I put the question, those who are in favour of the motion.

MR R M BURROWS:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker, I think you are taking a vote on the proposed resolution.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

THE RESOLUTION AS PUT TO THE HOUSE - AGREED TO

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the ANC, we request a division in terms of Rule 88.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Are there any supporters for the division?  There must be not less than four.

AN HON MEMBER:  Mr Speaker, I would like to add my voice of support to the proposed division.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Speaker, I also support the call for a division.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, I also support the call for a division.

THE SPEAKER:  I will ask the Secretary to ring the bell.

BELLS ARE RUNG FOR THREE MINUTES

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker, as I did say in my statement I was confused.  Fortunately I did mention that we supported the Bill, but this thing here is a different thing, it is not the Bill, it is a resolution.  We of the PAC supported the Bill.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Therefore, may I be permitted to reverse my earlier statement.

THE SPEAKER:  I think that Baba Mkhwanazi will do it when we vote.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Okay, thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE SPEAKER:  Close the doors, please.  All the doors must be closed and no members are allowed in or out.  Order, please, order, order, order.  I will ask those who support the resolution, to come to this side and those who are against to sit on this side.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Mr Speaker, in terms of Rule 95 I just want to rise on a point of order, and that is in line with what the hon member Mr Mkhwanazi said, whether this House, particularly the members opposite, would like to reconsider their position seeing that they are the only Province that has a Premier who is a medical doctor and who understands this risk.  They should change their position and support the Bill.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mrs Cronje?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the members on this side are very disappointed that we have yet again not had an opportunity to play with the buttons.  Could we please try out our very expensive system?  We want to try out our expensive voting system and we are wondering why we cannot use our hi-tech system.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  The Secretary has counted and recorded the division and therefore the division is as follows:  Those who are in favour of the resolution are 48, those who are against are 27.  

ON DIVISION THE RESOLUTION TO MANDATE NCOP DELEGATES NOT TO SUPPORT THE TOBACCO PRODUCTS AMENDMENT BILL IS PASSED BY 48 VOTES FOR AND 27 AGAINST.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  We have this fairly elaborate, as Mrs Cronje has said, voting system.  [LAUGHTER]  Why are we not using it?  It cost us a lot of money.  
THE SPEAKER:  That will follow next time, thank you.  I request the members to take their seats.

MR D P MFAYELA: [Mr Speaker, Felgate must wear a jacket in Parliament].

THE SPEAKER:  Now we will move on Item 9.2.

9.2	KWAZULU-NATAL REGULATION OF RACING AND BETTING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT BILL

THE SPEAKER:  The Minister to lead it.  Thank you, hon Mr Miller.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, it is indeed a great honour for me to be the first person to move a Bill under your tenure as the Speaker, and so in a sense, together with you, I am creating a little bit of history.

Mr Speaker, the Portfolio Chair of the Premier's Committee tabled a report earlier.  I have not seen it distributed to members, the report on this particular Act, and I think it would be advantageous if this were done.

I wish to sketch the background to the need to introduce this Bill today.  Mr Speaker, members will recall that during my Budget Speech in June, I dealt with the issue that racing seems to be in decline and that provincial revenue earned from betting taxes last year had decreased by 14%.  It was argued that racing clubs were not modernising and evolving in such a way as to equip themselves to compete with alternate forms of gambling, that are in the process of being introduced into the Province at the present time.

However, I am very pleased to report that today's legislation results from the fact that in the past few months the industry, in consultation with my Ministry, have taken very dramatic and positive steps towards modernising and equipping themselves to become more efficient, more cost effective, more streamlined and better organised in order to be able to deal with the competition that certainly in the next year or two, will legally abound in the Province.

With them having taken those positive steps, it became necessary for us to attend to certain legislative requirements in terms of the old Ordinance, and that is why we introduce this Bill today to attend to those amendments.

The amendments are to be found in three parts.  Firstly, we have a need, after having obtained legal opinion, to confirm the position of the existing KwaZulu-Natal racing clubs and any future racing club, in law.  This is done by the amendments to the appropriate clauses, which I will deal with shortly.

We also need to provide for the amalgamation and incorporation of the existing racing clubs, and finally, as a result of that amalgamation and incorporation we have to provide for the dis-establishment of the Racing and Wagering Development Board.  This dis-establishment of the Racing and Wagering Development Board will come about because the three clubs become one.  We no longer have to have an independent body to mediate between the demands of three separate clubs with three separate sets of demands on the racing resources.

I will now deal with each clause of the Bill.

CLAUSE 1

Clause 1 deals with the definition section of the Ordinance.  New definitions for "merged club" and "original club" are brought about.  We also amend the existing definition of "non-proprietary club" in order to broaden the definition to accommodate modern business trends.  This means that clubs will be able to take the form of other juristic persons such as CC's, or non-profit companies, etcetera.  It is now common business practice for associations of persons to form corporate entities and, this too is made possible by our amendment of that definition.

We also need to amend the definition because the current definition requires racing clubs to have been formed solely for the purpose of promoting and conducting horse racing.  While we acknowledge that this is the primary purpose, Mr Speaker, we also need to make it possible for clubs to diversify their activities.  Let me say there are specifically diversifications in the field which they are doing all the time, like catering, hosting seminars and meetings at their premises, allowing members to have weddings on their premises and so on.  This has in fact been happening, but in terms of the definition, it was an activity which was not strictly legal in terms of the Ordinance.

In paragraph (d) of clause 1, we insert a definition for "Parliament" into the Ordinance, which is there simply for purposes of good legislation.

In paragraph (e) of clause 1 we insert a definition for "racing club" for ease of interpretation as the expression "racing club" does appear throughout the Ordinance and its regulations.

CLAUSE 2

Clause 2 amends section 3 (1) of the Ordinance primarily as a consequence of the proposed amendments to the definition of "non-proprietary club" and also as a consequence of the inclusion of the definition of "racing club".  In addition, the requirement in the existing section 3 (1) whereby the Minister authorises the Director-General to issue a racecourse licence is impractical in view of the new organisational structure of our Provincial Administration.  It is accordingly proposed that this requirement be deleted and that the MEC, from time to time, be empowered to issue the said licence.

CLAUSE 3

Clause 3 of the Bill inserts two new sections in the Ordinance, namely section 3(a) which deals with the establishment of a racing club, and section 3(b) to deal with incorporation or amalgamation of racing clubs.

It is considered necessary to make specific provision for the establishment of a racing club in the Ordinance and sub-section (1) of the proposed section 3 (a) seeks to address this.  In consequence of this, Mr Speaker, sub-section (2) of the proposed section 3 (a) of the Bill deems the three existing racing clubs to have been established in terms of the Racing and Betting Ordinance, 1992 and the Regulation of Racing and Betting Ordinance of 1957, which are the two laws in terms of which the three clubs in question were originally established and licensed.

Section 3 (b) then provides for incorporation and amalgamation of any racing club to facilitate the current developments in the racing industry, not only in this Province, but nationally, and will provide for any future instances where amalgamation and incorporation of racing clubs take place.  The three existing racing clubs in the Province are currently separate functional entities, resulting in triplication of various functions and costs that can no longer be sustained.  In line with current trends globally, we are making it possible with these amendments for the clubs to consolidate their business and resources with a view to creating a tighter functional unit to promote efficiency and to contain costs.

CLAUSE 4

Clause 4, Mr Speaker, amends section 8 (a) of the Ordinance which provides for the disposal of the assets of a racing club upon its dissolution or liquidation.  At present, section 8 (a) provides that such assets shall devolve upon the Racing and Wagering Development Board, but we are also making provision for this Board to be disestablished at some time in the future.  Such dis-establishment resulting from the amalgamation of the three racing clubs.  It is therefore necessary for us to add in section (a) a provision to deal with the eventuality of the Racing and Wagering Development Board being dissolved.  In this instance we provide, in the event of all racing in our Province being dissolved, for the assets in fact to come to the Provincial Revenue Fund.

CLAUSE 5

Clause 5 deals with the requirement at the appropriate time for the Racing and Wagering Development Board to be dissolved and it allows for this provision to be brought into operation once steps have been taken to wind up the activities of the fund.

CLAUSE 6

Clause 6 is the short title and makes provision for different dates of coming into operation for the various sections.

Mr Speaker, it is pleasing to record that this Bill received the favourable attention of the appropriate Portfolio Committee and it is with confidence that I move the adoption of all the proposed amendments and the amending Bill as a whole.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  The Bill has been moved for adoption.  Can I now call upon the speaker from the IFP.  We will proceed with the following procedure.  We will ask the speaker from the IFP to speak please, as far as possible, for not more than three minutes, the speaker from the ANC, as far as possible, for not more than two minutes and the other parties, as far as possible, for not more than one minute.  Thank you.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Mr Speaker, members of the House, I certainly will be brief.  The amendments to this Ordinance came before the Premier's Portfolio Committee and we were unanimous in approving them.  What one is seeing here is that the horse racing industry is now rationalising, it is consolidating, it is gearing itself, bracing itself, for the introduction of other legalised forms of gaming, that being gambling.  Mr Speaker, these moves are essential for them to continue and certainly the IFP fully support this Amendment Bill.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, thank you, Mr Aulsebrook.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, I rise from the side of the ANC, to support this Bill.  In addition, we must place on record that when the ANC is the Government of this Province next year, it will not bring Bills like this to this House, Bills which say nothing about the transformation of the racing industry.  The racing industry remains a bastion only for rich white people.  In addition we support the modernisation of the industry.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Dr Sutcliffe.  I will now call upon the National Party.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I crave your indulgence.  The hon Mr Volker passed a remark about my dead horse.  He must respect the dead, the horse cannot be here to defend itself.  [LAUGHTER].

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I ask for a speaker from the National Party.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, Mr Rajbansi seems to be defending his horse and his wife today.  [LAUGHTER].

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order, I have never defended my wife, all I said, somebody promised her this vacant position in the IFP and they did not carry out their promise.  I said that.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order, can we allow the hon member to proceed.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, in these times of rapid change and even more rapid economic decline in our country, I believe it is prudent that the horse racing industry in our Province be given an opportunity to re-organise their affairs to accommodate modern business trends.  

The proposed amendments, the hon Minister Miller, has given us the essence of it and that is really, it seeks to allow clubs for financial reasons to diversify their activities, in addition to the conduct of horse racing, to apply for casino and gambling licences.  Of course that could be questioned with the five casino licences soon to be granted, that they could be in conflict, but that is over to the Board itself to resolve.  Requirements, however, do provide that one of the objects, just one, must be the promotion and conduct of horse racing.  

One hopes that the real resolve of the existing industry and racing clubs is that it supports many facets, the breeding of horses, the farming enterprise, supporting of jockeys, trainers and all of that and we hope it supports to resolve that horse racing is its main object.

The Bill provides for the merging and amalgamation of the racing clubs, if so desired, of Clairwood Turf Club, Pietermaritzburg Turf Club, The Durban Turf Club, as non-proprietary clubs who have years of tradition and service to the Province of KwaZulu-Natal and made substantial contributions in taxes as well.

Tribute should be paid to those clubs and their committees and members for their outstanding contribution over many years.  We hope they do transform to help all our communities in their funding, and the funding be allocated for the actual support of communities and also support of others who are trying to get into the industry.  With that, the National Party supports the Bill before us.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I am requesting members, I am not suppressive, but I am requesting members to please stick as much as possible to the guidelines.

MR R M BURROWS:  I take it that was directed at the previous speaker rather than myself, Mr Speaker.  The Democratic Party will support this measure which is in line with proposals from the racing clubs themselves.  It seeks to bring together the possibility of mergers.  It does not interfere with the clubs' carrying out of their own activities within their sphere of influence and that is precisely where the hon Mr Sutcliffe will fall down.  The ANC's proposal to interfere in every sphere of influence of life is bound to fail and it will receive the due attention from the voters, both of this Province and of other provinces.

Mr Speaker, we believe that the racing clubs are keeping pace with the changes that are found in South Africa.  We hope, however, in agreement with the previous speaker, and we trust that we will not end up as, for example, the Racing Club of Monte Carlo, whose only asset is the casino and nothing else.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The Minority Front supports this Bill.  The racing club has been getting a hammering from the gambling industry and with the possible opening of the five casinos, they expect to suffer more.  In a previous address, the hon Minister in charge of horse racing, indicated that the only area of growth was the off-course tote facilities.  There was a growth of about 300% in the off-course facilities.  I agree with Dr Mike Sutcliffe, it is not a private club, it is a club that serves the community, it is a club that exists as the result of a licence issued by the Government, it must transform its whiteness to the true rainbowness of this Province.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The PAC supports the Bill, hoping that the Minister will monitor the effect of the huge profits which should be shared by the people who have always been disadvantaged.  I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Mkhwanazi.  Mrs Downs?

MRS J M DOWNS:  Racing should be allowed to die.  It is immoral, it takes money from the very poor and puts it into the pockets of the very rich.  When the ANC talk about transformation I am amazed that they would want to transform something like this.  Go to the off-course totes and look at who is placing the bets.  It is taking sugar money, tea money, etcetera, out of the pockets of people who can ill afford it.  It is not paternalistic, because a dream has been dangled in front of them, they do not know the odds, and that is the problem.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  I will now call upon the Minister in charge to reply to the debate.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, I will be very brief.  I listen with absolute amazement at the ignorance which fuel some of the comments like the last one just made.  The reality is that it is the very rich wasting their money in vast quantities that actually fuels a racing industry.  I know of no other industry which is a greater voluntary redistributer of wealth ever.  Ninety percent of the participants in the racing industry, owners and others, actually lose money and they enjoy doing it.  The vast majority of the people that win on the totes come from the very poor.  I am not suggesting that people should spend their sugar money, or their food money on betting, but let me tell you something, that if you think racing is wicked, wait until they have got free access to one armed bandits.

Mr Speaker, I specifically address myself to my old nemesis across the road there, Dr Sutcliffe.  I want to tell him right now that if he were to carry out, or if the ANC and, thank heavens, the bulk of the ANC are not so stupid.  The ANC people that I know have got much more brains than to suggest - and that does not include you, leaving the room either [LAUGHTER] - they have got much more brains than to suggest that an industry which pays this Province R60m a year in tax and which survives because rich people of all hues go there and waste their money voluntarily, that you are going to transform it.  Chase all the rich people of all hues away and put poor people there and think that they can afford to waste money.

Mr Speaker, the whole idea that an industry like racing, which is an activity of civil society, which is one where people go along and take the money out of their own pockets and spend it on their own fun, and in the process create 25,000 jobs in this Province, that you are going to transform it.  How are you going to transform it?  Transform means change.  Are you going to chase all those people away and put others in their place?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  The Employment Equity Bill has nothing to do with this because it is a voluntary activity, it is not a corporate situation.  Owning a racehorse, Mr Speaker, is a voluntary activity.  If you want to stop it, if you want to kill the industry, then tell people that they are not allowed to spend their money as they please, creating jobs.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  I have heard today one of the best reasons I have ever heard in my life, why we cannot afford an ANC Government this time next year.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  That concludes the debate on the Amendment Bill.  I will now put the Bill to the House.

KWAZULU-NATAL REGULATION OF RACING AND BETTING ORDINANCE AMENDMENT BILL - PASSED

MR A RAJBANSI:  Before I be accused of violating a Rule, I want to declare an interest that my horse died but I bought another horse, called Elated Eliza.  It will run in February and it will win the first race for Dr Mike Sutcliffe.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The Bill has been passed.  I will now request the Secretary to read the short title of the Bill.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Regulation of Racing and Betting Ordinance Amendment Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  We then proceed with our Order Paper to Item No 9.3.

9.3	KWAZULU-NATAL UNAUTHORISED EXPENDITURE BILL

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  We will request the Minister in charge to lead the debate.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I stand before the House today to give effect to a series of resolutions of the ...

AN HON MEMBER:  Revolutions?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Of resolutions, I said, passed by the Committee on Public Accounts and adopted by this Parliament in December 1996.  It is a matter of regret that it has taken as long as it has to actually finalise this matter entirely, but nonetheless, this is what, with your help, we will do today.

Mr Speaker, in essence, we come before you today to regularise unauthorised expenditure, going back as far as 1992/1993, for the KwaZulu Government, as it was then, the self-governing territory of KwaZulu, and also in one instance, we are required to regularise the expenditure in regard to the old Natal Provincial Administration.  

The position arises that during the 1992/1993 financial year, in the various votes of the then KwaZulu Government, there were certain amounts expended that were a charge against the revenue account, which were deemed by the Auditor-General to be unauthorised.  In order for us to clean up the books and get these amounts out of that situation, we are required to authorise that expenditure, in order that we can deal with the situation.

I comment that in the office of the Chief Minister, we have a small amount of R481, in the 1992/1993 financial year, which by Resolution No 14, was authorised by the Public Accounts Committee.  In Vote 3, the old Department of Works of those days, here we have R3,67m and that was passed as per Resolution No 15 of the Public Accounts Committee.  In Vote 7 of the erstwhile KwaZulu Government, we have a Department of Health with unauthorised expenditure of some R8m.  

The Public Accounts Committee has heard and considered evidence and has recommended this sum for authorization by this Parliament, and that was done by Resolution No 16.  In Vote 8 of the erstwhile KwaZulu Government, the Department of Police has an amount of R264,000 - the same procedure has been followed and that was passed by Resolution No 17.  Vote 10, the Department of Economic Affairs, there is a sum of some R158,000 the same procedure again, I will not repeat it all, but the authorization as recommended by Resolution No 18 of the Public Accounts Committee.

In the 1993/1994 financial year, we have a total amount here of some R79m, being R15m in the Department of Works, R20m in the Department of Health, R22m in the Department of Finance, R21m in the Department of Welfare and Pensions, all in the erstwhile KwaZulu Government which was expenditure over-budget and which has been passed for authorization by Resolution No 35 of the Public Accounts Committee.

In the 1994/1995 financial year, which is the first financial year that this Legislature was the legislature for the combined Province, we have a situation where there is a total amount of some R13,3m that requires authorization, split between Health -  R12,1m, Nature Conservation R1,1m - and minor amounts in Administration, Health and Works.  These are passed per Resolution No 58.

Mr Speaker, the full details are carried in the Bill, there is a schedule to the Bill where the amounts are laid out in detail.  The whole object of the Bill is to give effect to all these resolutions I have read out to you.  We have dealt with in the Bill, the unauthorised expenditure for different financial years, separately.  I therefore move that the Bill to charge the Provincial revenue account with certain unauthorised expenditure and to provide for matters connected therewith, be adopted.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I will again request that members speak in the following order, that is the IFP, ANC, National Party, DP, Minority Front, PAC, ACDP and that the time allocations be as has been suggested.  We request the members not to exceed the times allocated.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, I think it is normal that the chairperson of a committee would speak first and I believe that is what should be done.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, that is why I was saying that the IFP, because I understood that ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  This is Public Accounts.  Thank you, sorry.  Chairperson?

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Minister for having introduced the Bill.  It was a long time coming because as the Minister has indicated, this relates to periods dating back to 1 April 1992 up to 31 March 1995.  This Bill basically provides that unauthorised expenditure be authorised, because it cannot remain in limbo, it cannot remain unauthorised expenditure because then it is not provided for officially, in the financial books of the Province.

It should also be understood that unauthorised expenditure, as referred to in this Bill, is not necessarily fruitless expenditure, nor is it naturally corrupt or fraudulent expenditure.  

It must be understood in terms of the specific understanding that a private person or community may do anything that is not prohibited by law or regulation.  On the other hand, the State, the Treasury, state departments and the officials in charge of the departments, may only do what is specifically provided for in law.  

State expenditure is regulated by budgets, which are enacted in law.  When departments spend more in a financial year, than what is provided for in budget legislation, then the Auditor-General has no option but to report to the Legislature on the excess expenditure as unauthorised expenditure.

One must, however, also understand that unauthorised expenditure is indicative of a certain lack of administrative fiscal discipline.

There is a further matter that I would just like to refer to briefly.  The period 1992/1993 and 1993/1994, refer to unauthorised expenditure, incurred by the previous KwaZulu Administration.  That became the responsibility of the new merged Administration of KwaZulu-Natal.  That is why it is being dealt with here.  It was not incurred by the new elected Legislature or the Administration of the new Legislature.

There is also the period of 1994/1995, in other words after the election.  I refer members to Schedule 4, which relates to that specific period, 1994/1995, former KwaZulu Government Service.  I would like to explain that after the election, the management of the finances were not immediately merged, because they were operating on different financial management systems.  Therefore, for the first year after the election, there were still separate accounts and handling of accounts by the former KwaZulu Administration - that is why it is referred to as the former KwaZulu Government Service and the former Natal Provincial Administration - but it was the joint responsibility of the new joint Legislature.  It is just necessary that that should be understood in that context.

The 1995/1996 audited reports have not yet been finalised.  They are in the process of being finalised and any unauthorised expenditure relating to that period will come to this Legislature at a later stage.  I support the Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, thank you, Mr Volker.  Shall we than have a speaker from the IFP for no longer than three minutes.

MR M R MZOBE:  Mr Speaker, hon members of the Legislature, it is common knowledge, sir, that finance is the heart and the lifeblood of any institution and must be handled with tender care if it is to succeed.  It is for that particular reason that the public sector, or the Government, establishes the checks and balances in the form of Treasury, Auditor-General, the Public Accounts Committee, to see to it that the taxpayer's money is expended efficiently and effectively.

In its quest for smooth administration, the Public Accounts Committee recommended that we deal effectively with the unauthorised expenditure that has been incurred over the past years.  It proposed that a Parliamentary Act be passed in order for this to be regulated properly.  For that reason, Mr Speaker, I duly support the Bill in the name of the IFP.  Thank you, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member.  Hon member, Mr I C Meer from the ANC, for no more than two minutes.

MR I C MEER:  Mr Speaker, I want to stress that this Bill is to be taken seriously.  While Parliament is not in session, the Public Accounts Portfolio Committee is the eyes and ears of this Legislature.  In a perfect situation there should be no reason for such a Bill, there should be no unauthorised expenditure.  We have not reached that perfection; we will never reach it, because "to err is human" and perfection rests with the Almighty alone.

AN HON MEMBER:  To forgive is divine.

MR I C MEER:  Well, sometimes we are not forgiven at all.  But what is important is that we do not claim that we are not capable of making errors.  But what is important is an appeal to the Executive that when this matter is first brought to the attention of our Committee, that is the Public Accounts Committee, the Press rightly has an access to this information and it may be a wrong impression created that unauthorised is equal to illegal.  It is not.  

We therefore support this measure and plead with every Minister to take the necessary precaution that we will not create a situation where large amounts of money, running into millions, will have to be brought back in a special Act before this House for acceptance.  The Public Accounts Committee, is totally in agreement, unanimously, that this measure should be passed and there should be no aspersions that this matter is in any way a reflection of anything which is not regular.  In terms of our own requirement, we are regularising a matter which has not been carried out in terms of our own requirements.  Therefore, I have great pleasure, on behalf of the ANC, to support this Bill.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member Mr Meer.  DP, hon member Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, we would also support this Bill.  We make the point simply that in comparison to unauthorised expenditures that have been discovered in other provinces, this was relatively minor.  Whilst any unauthorised expenditure is undesirable, I would also draw attention to the fact that this does not imply fruitless expenditure or fraud or anything of the kind and in fact even today, if there should be evidence that there was any fraud or illegal activity involved, such cases could be prosecuted.  With those words our party will support the Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon member, Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The Minority Front supports this Bill.  Tremendous credit must go to the Public Accounts Committee for the excellent work that is being done by them.  I think with the emphasis that unauthorised expenditure need not necessarily mean fraudulent or irregular expenditure, the time is now right that we should replace the terminology, unauthorised expenditure.  The general public comes to the incorrect conclusion that something was wrong with the administration of the finances of the Government, or at the time of the present Government.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member.  Hon member Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, the PAC supports the Bill.  After listening carefully to the explanation of the hon Minister and by the Chairperson of the Accounts Committee, we have no option but to congratulate them and hope that perhaps this is the last time we will have something called unauthorised expenditure in this Province.  I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  ACDP?

MRS J M DOWNS:  The ACDP supports this Bill.  I think everything that needed to be said has generally been said, except for one thing.  I just have a concern that it is 1998 and we are only dealing with unauthorised expenditure of 1992/1993.  That is the only concern I have.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the Minister to reply to the debate.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, I have nothing to add other than to ask that the House support the Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.

THE KWAZULU-NATAL UNAUTHORISED EXPENDITURE BILL - PASSED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will ask the Secretary to read the Bill.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Unauthorised Expenditure Bill.

THE SPEAKER:  Therefore we move to Item No 9.4.

9.4	KWAZULU-NATAL PARLIAMENTARY OFFICIAL LANGUAGES BILL

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Minister ~Inkosi~ Ngubane?

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  Mr Speaker and the hon House, first and foremost, I will request the hon members not to leave because otherwise our decisions will be invalid as we will be soon running short of a quorum.

Mr Speaker, the use of language is a very important matter in the life of every individual.  It is the primary matter in which he or she learns and communicates from the earliest age, with his or her parents.  It is therefore not surprising that our Constitution deals with this matter and Section 6 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa 1996, Act No 108 of 1996, addresses the principle of official languages.

Section 6 (2) of the 1996 Constitution states that:

	Recognising the historically diminished use and status of the indigenous languages of our people, the state must take practical and positive measures to elevate the status and advance the use of these languages.

In sub-section 3 (a) it continues to describe how the question of official languages is to be addressed by the National and Provincial Governments and indicates that:

	The national government and provincial governments may use any particular official languages for the purposes of government, taking into account the usage, practicality, expense, regional circumstances and the balance of needs and preferences of the population as a whole or in the province concerned; but the national government and each provincial government must use at least two official languages.

Sub-section 4 of the Constitution provides that inter alia provincial governments must regulate and monitor their use of official languages.  The Bill before us aims to do so.

The existing de facto language policy being pursued in and by the KwaZulu-Natal Parliament is to treat English, isiZulu and Afrikaans as the three official languages of the provincial Parliament, with notices, proclamations, etcetera being published in all three languages in the Provincial Gazette.  This Bill seeks to formalise this existing policy.

Section 1, Mr Speaker and the hon House, of the Bill contains the definitions and Section 2 stipulates that all three languages shall be official languages of the House.  This Section also confirms the right of any person to use any of the official languages contemplated in the Constitution, when addressing the House.  The internal paper proceedings of the House do not necessarily have to be published in all three official languages.  We have ascertained from the Chief Legal Advisor in Pretoria that this is in order, since it refers to the internal communications in Parliament.

Section 3 repeats a principle which is already in the standing Rules, and requires that where a Bill or an Act is required to be published, this must be done in all three languages.  The Section goes further and requires that any proclamations and notices which are published in terms of the Act of this House, must also be published in all three languages.

As would be appropriate, Section 4 provides that a member of the public may communicate with this House in any of the country's official languages.

Section 5 contains the short title.  Mr Speaker, I believe that this Bill is important and that it shows that this Province recognises fundamental matters of cultural importance.  Although we have asserted English, isiZulu and Afrikaans as the official languages for regular use by this Parliament, we wish it to be noted that we recognise and respect all the languages of our culturally diverse region.  Practicalities and expense, unfortunately forces us to limit ourselves somewhat at this time.  I therefore, Mr Speaker, move that we pass this Bill.  I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I will ask the hon member from the IFP, the hon Mr Gwala.

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):  Mr Speaker, the object of this Bill is to implement Section 6 of the Constitution where each province must make provision for the official languages of the province.  Section 6(3)(a) of the Constitution reads as follows:

	The national government and provincial governments may use any particular official languages for the purposes of government, taking into account usage, practicality, expense, regional circumstances and the balance and the needs and preferences of the population as a whole or in the province concerned; but the national government and each provincial government must use at least two official languages.

Therefore, Mr Speaker, the Bill before us today recognises Zulu, or isiZulu, English and Afrikaans as the official languages of KwaZulu-Natal and makes it possible for the Legislature to implement the provision of the Constitution, taking into account usage, practicality, expense and regional circumstances.  Mr Speaker, it gives me pleasure to support this Bill on behalf of the IFP.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  ANC?

MR V C XABA: 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order!  Order, please!

MR V C XABA: 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Speaker.  We, in the African National Congress, we support this Bill that is before the House, regarding the languages that have to be used by this House.  

That is not enough because this Bill does not talk about the use of languages in the KwaZulu-Natal Government, but it only talks about the use of languages in the House of Parliament.  I hope that there will be another law stating the use of languages in the Government in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

I also hope that the Department of Education in KwaZulu-Natal, will also come up with a law that will govern the teaching of languages in KwaZulu-Natal schools, because you will remember how languages were previously used by the old Government.  

I hope that at this present time, there will be change regarding children being taught in languages they prefer to be taught in, in other words the language spoken at home.  You should not come across a child who says he does not eat the insides of a goat.  It means straying as far as languages are concerned, because that language is not taught where that child attends school.  In other words, they are forced to assimilate into those other nationalities.

So, that is what we are proposing, that they do not assimilate languages spoken by other nationalities.  If they are still in those areas, it is necessary that the language they speak at home should be a language that they will be able to get at that school and be taught, because the law states that even those languages that will not be made official languages, need to be respected and encouraged.

Another thing I wish to express is the hope that there will come a time when the teaching of the Zulu language will become compulsory in all the schools throughout the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, because it is the language largely spoken by the people of KwaZulu-Natal, with the aim of encouraging communication between the people of KwaZulu-Natal, because communication means development, development means the success of each and every person.  Speaker, thank you, we support this Bill.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  The National Party?

ADV D P A SCHUTTE: 

Mr Speaker, I would like, technically, to refer you to Clause 2 (3) and I believe as it stands, it does not make sense.  An amendment was made to that, but I believe that the word "and" in Clause 2 (3), the second line, should read "the" and not "and" and I would therefore like to formally propose an amendment which I hope there will be no opposition to, but that the word "the" is substituted for the word "and" in Clause 2 (3) line 2.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  DP?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, the Democratic Party will support the measure that is before us and we support the amendment that is being proposed by the hon Mr Schutte.

I would, however, point out, Mr Speaker, that there is an interesting point that must be made about this legislation, and that it is the Language Bill of the Parliament of KwaZulu-Natal and is not the Language Bill of the Government of KwaZulu-Natal.  Despite what the Minister read in his introductory speech, the constitutional provisions have still not been complied with and presumably we await legislation on the official languages to be used in the Government of KwaZulu-Natal as distinct from the Parliament.

In that respect, Mr Speaker, I must also point out that when the hon Mr Schutte stood up and spoke mellifluously in Afrikaans, the translation was into Zulu and there was no translation into English.  I must point out that is in conflict with this legislation and presumably you will now have a triple translation requirement in this Legislature.

The Democratic Party also takes note of the hon Mr Xaba's "pleidooi" for the non-assimilation of his cultural language group into English and we must respect that.  I must however point out that there is a national policy on the use of languages in schools, as choice and mother tongue is in conflict with one another, either you exercise a choice or you have mother tongue.  The National Party had mother tongue and you had no choice.  The official policy of the ANC at national level is to offer parents the choice not to have mother tongue if they so choose.  That is the official policy, Mr Xaba.  I am quite happy to provide you with a copy of that document if you so choose.

In connection with the teaching of languages other than the medium of instruction - which is what was being referred to - I think that we do need in this Province, an explicit policy on the teaching of languages and we will support that.  

Mr Speaker, we do believe that this policy that is before us today is wide enough for introduction.  It will not be, we hope, very costly, but even if it is, it is an obligation in this multi-cultural and multi-linguistic country and this Province, to in fact incur costs in order to keep cultural peace.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The Minority Front?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The Minority Front supports this Bill with reservations.  We refer to Clause 2 (1) where English, Zulu and Afrikaans shall be the official languages of Parliament.  I will not deal with the language issue of the other groups in this country, other communities in this Province outside the Legislature.  I will deal with it on another occasion.  I thought especially the National Party, which claims to have got a sizeable percentage of the Indian vote in 1994, it has declined in 1996 and it is declining towards 1999, would have put up a case for the Indian community.  

The hon Minister, who is Acting Premier, who introduced this Bill, referred to other communities and other languages in this Province.  The time is now ripe that we should stop paying lip service.  English, Zulu and Afrikaans were the official languages in this Province.  

This Bill enables that these official languages be continued.  The sensus figure reveals that the second largest population group in this Province is the Indians.  The three largest languages spoken by the most number of people, highest number is Zulu, second highest English and third highest is Tamil.  I hope that those who pretend that they want the Indian vote will come with amending legislation to introduce the third largest spoken language in this Province, Tamil, to be one of the official languages.  The Minority Front will champion the cause.  It is the language not spoken by me, it is a language spoken by a very important person in the National Party, the hon Mr S V Naicker.

I want to suggest to the IFP that we boast about cultural pluralism in this Province.  We must stop paying lip service and recognise at least the largest Indian language in this Province, namely Tamil.  We will propose an amendment, and I hope that the ruling party will support us as well as the party that pretends to be the voice of the Indian community.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MR A RAJBANSI:  No, you are only saying you will support it because I said so.  I want to place that on record because I said so and you want to be led by me on Indian matters.  1999 we will crush them.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  PAC?

MR J D MKHWANAZI: 

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, if it were not in Parliament, I would orchestrate the singing of the traditional songs and I would dance.  Now, if I were to sing and dance, I will be out of order.  Why do I say this?  I say this because my dream and wish of seeing the Zulu language being given equal status with other languages which were placed on a high pedestal, has finally been realised, therefore I support this Bill.

I am grateful that our time has come, although we have not reached the end, where this Zulu language is made equal to the existing languages known as official languages.  

I am ashamed that when Adv Schutte rises and speaks one of the languages of this place, the Afrikaans language, which is said to be an African language, I will not be able to speak.  The reason I place forward for that is that Afrikaans was viewed as the language of oppression, the language of insult.  

When a person sought to insult you, he would do so in Afrikaans.  When he sought to speak nicely to you, he would do so in English or in isiZulu.  I hope that as my colleague Xaba said, these languages will be taught and they will be taught equally.  

I always reprimand the people who were born here in KwaZulu-Natal, whether they are white or black, who do not know how to speak isiZulu and yet they have stayed here, they were born here and they were raised here.  It means there was something wrong.  It is because the Zulu language was undermined.

I also want to say that as the hon member Mr Rajbansi speaks in the language originally spoken by the people of India, the other problem is that people of Indian origin, because of oppression, do not speak their original language, we call mother tongue.  

All of them have eventually opted for English as a first language and a few of them speak their mother tongue, and yet that is their heritage.  I wish that when I go to their homes, they can speak that language and also teach me.  People should not complain that their language ought to be recognised and yet, they themselves do not recognise it in their homes, they do not speak it in their homes.

Another member of Parliament mentioned that I was in the sea of England, in the sea the language was English and it was not even Zululand, Zulu-spoken.  I am not saying they should do likewise, but I plead with everybody.  Thank you.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  ACDP?

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  It is actually with great pleasure, for once, that I rise to support the Bill.  I would like to say that for the first time, this afternoon, as an English speaker I felt at a disadvantage, because as the hon member was speaking Zulu, it was being translated to Afrikaans, neither language which I understand.  That is a good thing, because as an English speaker, I have never been disadvantaged in that way before and maybe it gave me an idea of what some people feel like.

I would like to suggest to this House that this is really just the first step, because we have made it official in Parliament now, we need to translate that into our Provincial Government, which, I must say, on the whole, is able to cope with the three languages.  I think that as this House, we should use the vehicle of the NCOP and take it further, because it has come to my attention that particularly Zulu-speaking people are at great disadvantages in the courts in this Province and they really battle.  All of the court papers and the court language are in English only.  Sometimes in Afrikaans.  There are not always interpreters and particularly on maintenance matters, or matters where forms have to be completed, it puts our people at a great disadvantage.  They feel alienated and they cannot understand the court system.

I would like to make a plea to this House that the relevant Portfolio Committee have a look at that, because we have the vehicle of the NCOP and we should be able to put that forward for national legislation, that where there is a minority language in a province, national departments should use that language in the system.  Here I am referring particularly to the justice system.  We really support this Bill.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now ask the Minister to respond to the debate.

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  Thank you, Mr Speaker. 
[I ask that the Bill be passed by this House with the attached amendment.  I am very pleased].

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  In terms of Rule 127 an amendment has been proposed by the hon member Adv Schutte.  In terms of this Rule I therefore rule that the Bill be recommitted to the Committee and after they have discussed the amendment, we will come back and complete the Bill.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I crave your indulgence.  In respect of the submission of the amendment, we have no copy of the amendment.  I think the Rules say that it must be submitted in writing.  If it has been - Mr Schutte says it has been - we have not got a copy of it.

MR R M BURROWS:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker, we actually have a precedent in this House that where a grammatical error has occurred at a point between the Portfolio Committee and this House in terms of the typing up, this House can by either a show, or can assent to that amendment without the whole matter being referred back.  It is a simple grammatical error.  I would crave your indulgence and allow the House to go ahead.  There is precedent for it.

THE SPEAKER:  Let us hear from the other parties on whether they agree to what the hon member Mr Roger Burrows has said.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I do not have a particular problem with it, but in consultation with our Chief Legal Advisor, there was a feeling that whilst the House debates the Gambling Bill, the Portfolio Committee could meet literally for two minutes, just to confirm the position and be back in here without delaying matters.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Also on a point of order.  The Rules are there to assist us, not to bind us.  I would propose that we all agree that we suspend that Rule.  We are all in agreement that that change should be made, let us agree and we suspend the Rule for that purpose.  I propose formally that we suspend the Rule and that we make that amendment.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Is that agreed to by the other parties?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  I think the best way is to indicate per party.  Yes, Mr Tarr?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, although Mrs Cronje may in a strictly technical sense be correct, it is quite clear that this is a grammatical error.  In fact grammatical errors can be corrected by yourself, Mr Speaker, even after a Bill has been passed in this House.  I would perhaps make a plea to get our business completed, that we should agree to it now and pass this, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Mrs Cronje?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the ANC, as I have already indicated, has no problem with that, but it certainly is not a grammatical error.  We have no problem with the position put forward by the hon Mr Tarr.

THE SPEAKER:  The National Party?  Are you saying something, hon member?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, the National Party supports that proposal.

THE SPEAKER:  PAC?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, the PAC supports that proposal, that is why, in Zulu there will be no difference between a-n-d, and therefore it was a grammatical mistake and if English chooses to call a, we have no problem.

THE SPEAKER:  ACDP?

MRS J M DOWNS:  We support the proposal.

THE SPEAKER:  Minority Front?

MR A RAJBANSI:  We support this proposal, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  With the concurrence of the House, it seems as if the amendment is accepted by the House.

THE AMENDMENT AS PROPOSED BY ADV D P A SCHUTTE - AGREED TO

THE KWAZULU-NATAL PARLIAMENTARY OFFICIAL LANGUAGES BILL - PASSED

THE SPEAKER:  I will ask the Secretary to read the short title of the Bill.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Parliamentary Official Languages Bill.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Then we move to Item 9.5.

9.5	KWAZULU-NATAL GAMBLING AMENDMENT BILL

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, I am indeed pleased that you are back in the Chair and I once again can move a Bill in the presence of the new Speaker.  I just want to say in passing, as I start to move this Bill, what a wonderfully democratic House this is.  Some 67 members of the House represent two parties, the rest represent five parties and those that represent the five parties have more speaking time put together than the two major parties ever had.

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTION.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  And we also here today have confirmed that the language spoken by 2% ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker, the hon Minister referred to my wife and I would suggest that he does not do that again, because the tongue lashing that he will get, he will run out of this Chamber.  [LAUGHTER].

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, if I might continue, despite the sensitivities of the Tiger to the Tigress, the fact of the matter is that we are dealing with this Bill right now and we are not concerned about the hon Rajbansi's matrimonial affairs. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I request the Minister to withdraw that remark, it should be a matrimonial affair with my wife, not affairs.  He used the plural.  [LAUGHTER].

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  I do not really mind, Mr Speaker, how many affairs the hon member has, the point is this side of the House is not interested in the detail thereof.  [LAUGHTER].

Mr Speaker, I place before you a Bill which has been very thoroughly debated by the Portfolio Committee.  It has met on several occasions and as has been reported by the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee, and I am sure he will confirm this in a moment, certain amendments were made by the Portfolio Committee which I, as responsible Minister, was happy to accept.  The end result of the debate is consensus on what we wish to achieve by amending this Bill.

In short, sir, we deal here in this amendment with the redefining of the definition of a gaming machine.  We also seek to delete throughout the Bill, all references to lotteries and the conduct thereof, because in terms of the final Constitution of our country, this is no longer a provincial competence.

We also deal with certain issues that result in disqualification of applications for a gaming licence where our experience shows us that it was an unreasonable disqualification.  We, as I have already mentioned, repeal, throughout the existing Act, all those issues which relate to lotteries and then we deal very briefly with the regulation of powers of inspectors in regard to those inspectors who are granted peace officer status.

CLAUSE 1

Clause 1 of the Bill, Mr Speaker, seeks to substitute the definition of a gaming machine and deletes the definition of an "opportunity to play a further game" and of "lotteries".  

The change to the definition of "gaming machine" results from what we have experienced, namely the large scale abuse, by illegal operators, of such machines.  Legal operators, in many instances, have sought to stay in business by "modifying" their gaming machines and then purporting, or implying that these modified gaming machines, had now become entertainment machines.  This proposition is based on the belief that there are patrons who will play all night on a machine, which is generating random numbers, for the sheer opportunity to continue playing on that machine.  We have, however, experience, supported by both the prosecuting authorities in our Province and the South African Police Service that in many instances, this was merely a subterfuge for illegal gambling.

I wish, however, to assure the House, Mr Speaker, that the proviso to the definition is intended to accommodate bona fide amusement machines where a player simply wins the chance to play a game again up to a maximum of 10 games.  This maxima has in fact been recommended by the South African Bureau of Standards and it is a standard which is adopted in the manufacture of entertainment games.

Consequential to all this then, we actually delete in the Act the definition of an "opportunity to play a further game".  As I have indicated, in several parts of the proposed amendments to the Act, we delete reference to "lotteries" and I will merely mention the clauses where this happens, but it happens several times in the proposal before the House today.

CLAUSE 2

Clause 2 is one of these clauses which deals with the deletion of provisions for lotteries.

CLAUSE 3

Clause 3 adds a proviso to Section 28 (2) of the Act.  This is the situation where it has come to light that one of the provisions of Section 28 (2) of the Act may be prejudicial to certain applicants for gaming licences who are, or happen to be, related to a public servant.  An example of this is that an applicant company could be disqualified from being granted a licence simply because one of its directors may be married to a public servant, such as a school teacher or a nurse.

Mr Speaker, we contend that it was not intended to disqualify applicants in the above circumstances but rather to disqualify applicants who could in some way benefit from an association with a public servant, rather than simply be married to a public servant.  

The proposed amendment seeks to enable the Board to waive this requirement in cases such as the one I have described above, upon full disclosure of the disqualification in question and upon the Board being satisfied that the public servant concerned is not in a position to influence the licensing process.

CLAUSE 4

Clause 4 amends Section 31 (2) of the Act.  The proposed amendment seeks to replace the requirement for the Board to investigate a person who has "any financial interest whatsoever", which was what is included in the existing Act, and to replace this with the requirement to investigate any person who has a financial interest of 5% or more.

It has been our experience as we have gone through the development of the casino industry process in KwaZulu-Natal, that this is sufficient in regard to people who have a meaningful opportunity and a meaningful share-holding in order to actually influence the licensing process, or influence the decisions of the companies concerned.  We think it is adequate for purposes of investigation, for only persons holding 5% or more, to be investigated in terms of that particular provision, provision 31 (2) of the existing Act.

CLAUSE 5

Clause 5 again deals with the deletion of reference to lotteries.

CLAUSE 6

Clause 6 - it is necessary in this amendment, to include the provision in Section 84 of the Act to govern the powers and functions of inspectors who are peace officers and the proposed sub-section 2 (a) seeks to do exactly this.  We have deleted the words "authorised by a warrant" in Section 84 (2) in Clause 7 (a) thereof, as a requirement, because this is more explicitly dealt with in the Criminal Procedure Act of 1977 and it is not necessary for us to repeat this in our particular Act.

CLAUSE 7

Clause 7 again deals with another aspect of the deletion of reference to lotteries.

CLAUSE 8

Clause 8, Mr Speaker, contains the short title and allows the MEC responsible, to determine a date on which the Act and various sections thereof come into operation.

Mr Speaker, it is with pleasure that I move the adoption of all the amending clauses that I have described.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I will now call upon the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee, Mr Aulsebrook.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Mr Speaker, members of the House, the Minister has outlined in detail the Bill and its intentions.  I will not go into those details other than to say that they are basically technical amendments, and some others for certainly clarity of the Bill.  When one starts looking at the definition of gaming machines, and certainly this is one that the Committee spent a lot of time dealing with, we have come up with a definition which is as good as we are going to get at this point in time.  We have the assurances that it is not the intention of the Department, the Minister, or even the Gaming Board, to hinder any bona fide entertainment businesses, or amusement parks.  This is purely intended to control the illegal industry.

The other issue that this Bill deals with is that of the lotteries and as has been explained, required a deletion of lotteries from our Bill.  The Portfolio Committee, after much debate and discussion, finally adopted these amendments.  This Bill, with the amendments to Clauses 3 and 4, has certainly improved this Bill, in our view.

Now I would like to move on to the other issue and that is the situation of the casino licences in this Province.  What needs to be clarified at this point in time is that our process is on track, it is going ahead, as was contemplated in legislation.  There has been a lot of speculation in the Press about things being delayed and not proceeding accordingly, but I can assure this House that they are very much on track, as contemplated in legislation.  With three licences already having been granted ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  Correction, they are not granted, they are preferred.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Well, the preferred finalists have been identified by the Board and they now need to undergo probity.  With regards to the outstanding other licence or two licences for the Zone 1, one must realise that with those casinos, certainly the mega casinos, there are a lot of considerations that the Board has had to take into account and rightfully so.  The Cabinet, in accordance with the legislation have queried certain issues in the report, very legitimate, and that is how the legislation was intended to work and it is in fact serving us well.

In order to maximize benefits, there were basically three categories of criteria that had to be looked at, namely the development concept, and this involved infrastructure, development and displacement.  The second category was the delivery concept, which covered finance and viability.  The third, the economic and social objectives which dealt with issues like economic empowerment, social development, employment and other issues.  These are crucial and that is why the Cabinet have deemed it necessary to look at this matter again and closely.  I would like to emphasize that this matter is back on track ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker, I serve on the Premier's Portfolio Committee.  The hon Chairperson clearly knows what was discussed in the Cabinet.  He is letting his Cabinet down, he is letting his party down.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  I am reading from documents that have been available for the last year to the Committee, the basic criteria here.  This is the basic criteria laid out, right.

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTION.

AN HON MEMBER:  Not all of us are so dumb.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Mr Speaker, the IFP fully supports these amendments.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  ANC?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you, hon Speaker.  One of the things I am concerned about in these amendments is that through deleting the definition for a "further opportunity to play a game", this House might stop all of the play that we still allow in this House to gamble with each other and play games.

HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Hon Speaker, I rise to support this Bill from the ANC's side.  We did indicate to the hon MEC, and he agreed, that before the Bill is promulgated, he would publish  a set of regulations to address three things.  Firstly, he needs to define those leisure games that are not gaming machines that are based on random number generators.  Secondly, he needs to indicate by which games, that are not part of the gaming establishment, have to be registered.  Thirdly he needs to indicate the process for implementing proposals.  We accept his agreement that the date of promulgation will certainly be linked to these matters.  We thank him for that.

The final area, and it might be something to consider in the future, is to consider one of the aspects that we did not consider in dealing with this Gambling Act originally.  In brief, all members of elected office, at national, provincial and local government, should be ones where certain exclusions apply to.  Certainly at the moment the legislation only focuses on members of local governments who have served I think, within a period of two years.

Maybe in future one would need to look at all elected members of office, plus all officials at three levels of government as well.  That is something that can be part of future amendments.  From this side of the House we support this Bill.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The National Party?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, it is generally accepted that proper control of gambling and the regulation and elimination of the so-called illegal gaming machine operators is long overdue.  

Those who are still in the business of gambling at present may argue otherwise.  They claim they pay VAT at 14% and even income tax on profits and in addition employed, or did employ a considerable number of people and created a social activity on their premises.  Of course there is a difference of opinion on that.

The National Party, however, cannot support a continuation of illegal activities, but do plead that National and Provincial Government expedite the legal licensing of route and site operators.  We have spent two years over this, and the number of gaming machines allowed.  There have been long debates on that, but until we do that, illegals will continue and even go further underground and considerable revenue will be lost to this Province.

Further we plead, and the hon Dr Sutcliffe has said so as well, that the regulations be put in place timeously, together with the promulgation, so as not to prejudice genuine amusement and entertainment machine operators.  There is some doubt as to the definition as set out in Clause 1(a) and (b), I think, the clause that should be looked at there as well.

I could go on to the question of the lotteries and on casinos, but there are three preferred finalists as far as casinos is concerned at the moment.  We understand that legal action is being contemplated against the Minister and the Province in respect of alleged irregularities, in particular in the Natal Midlands Zone.  The first preferred finalist was permitted to amend the capital investment after the bid had been submitted and also that a company controlled by a political party, the ANC, is a major shareholder.  We have got to look into those in the future.  These things have got to be ironed out soon.  There is so much doubt and speculation out there.  However that is another matter.  With those reservations the National Party supports the Bill.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  DP?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, the Democratic Party will support the legislation and is pleased to see that a couple of the amendments that were suggested in the Committee have been taken up.  There is just one or two points that I would like to make.  First of all, in the definition of a gaming machine, I am pleased that it does in fact tighten up in accordance with the problems that have been presented through the Courts, but I must just point out to the Minister that I have a suspicion that what it will not cover is the extension of gambling on the Internet.  This is increasing, credit card controlled and will become, I think, one of those really great difficult areas where any Internet control will simply just not be able to be exercised by regional authority.  It will have to be done almost internationally, rather than even nationally.

The second area I would like to comment on is the deletion of lotteries.  One of the great problems that we in this Province have is that the national legislation on lotteries will provide for a single national lottery and for no provincial or regional lotteries.  It would be a signal of failing if we in this House did not recognise the success of an organisation such as Natal Lotto.  It has produced not only, I think, some 58 millionaires who have succeeded in winning the Lotto, but have provided social services to the extent that they have, through their funding, had over 2,500 classrooms erected in this Province over the last three or four years, considerably greater than any government has done.  I think we must express, as one of those most unfortunate sets of circumstances, that the centralisation that the ANC so love at the centre, has created only one lottery system for this country and has now allowed provinces themselves to have their own lottery system.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR R M BURROWS:  Finally, on the issue of casinos.  I was somewhat taken aback that the hon the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee saw fit to discuss the matter, or open, if I may, the subject of casinos on this amending legislation, which does not cover it in any way whatsoever, but since he has opened the door and others have reacted, I propose to do exactly the same.  

I think it is extremely unfortunate, sir, that the first time that we move to the issuing of casino licences, the Cabinet which is an entirely political body, made up of politicians, no better and no worse than those of us sitting in this House, should see fit to refer back to the Gambling Board for further consideration, matters that they have considered over a considerable period of time.  There can only be one inference in this, is that there is in fact political involvement in the issuing of licences in the zone that has not got it, sir.  We have deprecated it, we have condemned it and we believe that the Gambling Board should see fit to refer back to the Cabinet exactly the first recommendations that they made.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  The Minority Front.  Thank you.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  We have decided to support this Bill after the hon Minister gave a certain undertaking, in the Portfolio Committee, in respect of Clause 1 (b) which affects those people who engage in business activities using genuine amusement machines, and I express the wish that the hon Minister will give those undertakings in his reply so that they are recorded in Hansard.

Mr Speaker, it is to the credit of this Province that we were ready to go ahead with the licensing of site and route operators until such time that a national directive, quite correctly, came in.  In the absence of national regulations, we are powerless, according to a court ruling also in Pietermaritzburg, to issue licences for site and route.  

I want to request the hon Dr Mike Sutcliffe, to persuade his colleague in one of the important parties in the grand alliance the Minister of Trade and Industry, to ensure that the national regulations are made as quickly as possible.  As long as you do not provide for site and route operators to operate legally, they will try to operate illegally.  This will continue, they will jump into the smallest loophole that is available to continue with the so-called illegal activities.  

It is a policy of the IFP, as enunciated by the hon Dr Buthelezi, the hon Premier of this Province, and the policy of the ANC as enunciated by the State President of this country, we had an international conference on SMME.  I believe that we should not boast about a small group who wants to open a casino for R450m somewhere in Northern Natal or on the North Coast.  I prefer that we should encourage 200 people to invest R4m each, than to worry about a small group who wants to give us an investment of R450m.  Let us spread the load and let us spread the wealth.  Everybody has said, the saviour of this country is the promotion of the informal sector and the promotion of the SMME.

We have made one mistake.  In redefining the zones we suggested that two casinos in one zone should be at least 40 kilometres apart.  I do not agree with the sentiments expressed by the hon Mr Burrows, that the Cabinet should accept the recommendations of the Board.  The Cabinet is not a rubber stamp.  If you have genuine reasons why you cannot go along with the recommendation, you do not overrule it, but you refer it back.  The Cabinet is made up of ANC and IFP.  We do not know what was discussed.  We request that resolution.  

There are rumours that one casino has been recommended for Westville and one for the beach front.  We cannot have casinos in Durban 8 kilometres apart.  I do not know what the reasoning was, but I want to make an appeal to the hon Minister to put pressure through MINMAC to ensure that we as a Province are ready.  We cannot blame the Minister, and we cannot blame our Province.  We should have had the SMME in operation by now.  If it was not for the untimely intervention of the friend of the hon Dr Mike Sutcliffe.  

I want to appeal to the African National Congress to help this Province to help SMME.  The Minority Front will fight for SMME.  In spite of the fact that we might be a small party, we are going to grow big. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR A RAJBANSI:  It is not the Communist Party.  We know that a CP person heads the Trade and Industry, but I appeal to the ANC to help SMME.  You told the world at the conference held at the Exhibition Centre, that our highest priority, the saviour of this country, is the small businessman.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  PAC?

MR J D MKHWANAZI: [Mr Speaker, we support the amendment to this Bill with the hope that it will move us forward so we get money to feed this hungry nation.  Thank you].

THE SPEAKER: [Thank you, Ndonga].  ACDP?

MRS J M DOWNS:  Strangely enough we are going to rise to support this Bill.  For one reason, and one reason only, because it clamps down on illegal gambling.  That is the only reason that we are supporting this Bill.  In no way should it be read as a support for gambling.  We still hold the position that gambling is nothing more or less than legalised theft.  And to the hon Minister, your definition of ignorance depends on which side of the fence you sit.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  I will ask the hon Minister to reply to the debate.  Thank you.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, may I deal with the last first.  We were speaking in relation to the horse racing industry and while the hon member is very informed on many things, there is one thing she knows nothing about at all and that is horse racing.  Her definition of gambling is very much more acceptable.  Horse racing is a lot more than just gambling.

Mr Speaker, I commence my reply by saying that I am happy to place on record, the commitment given in the Portfolio Committee in regard to the whole question of the regulations which these amendments will make possible for us in regard to entertainment machines.  It was eminently reasonable, what the Portfolio Committee requested, in the sense that you cannot promulgate this Bill and then make people immediately illegal overnight.  The regulations, I give you the assurance, will deal with this issue.  I will table those resolutions so that the Portfolio Committee can be satisfied in that regard.  I am very happy to go on record as having said that.

Mr Speaker, just very briefly on lotteries.  I want to assure you that in several presentations that have been made to the Cabinet of our Province, the local lottery organisation has made very moving and very meaningful presentations.  The reality, however, is that the real draw card in any lottery is the size and scope of the prizes.  If we were in this country to give nine provinces nine separate lottery authorities, the whole nation would all invest in the Gauteng lottery and nobody would invest in the Northern Cape lottery.  The simple reason being that the Northern Cape lottery would have prizes like you have at a kiddies birthday party, or bingo, and Gauteng, where 40% to 50% of the economic wealth of our country is situated, would be able to take all the lottery entries, even from our own Province.  The Cabinet has been faced with the situation of having to say, in the interest of our people, what is best, a fair share of the big cake, or do we want to bake our own small cake.

I recognise the fact that some might argue, and nobody denies the wonderful good that Lotto has done as an organisation.  The wonderful service it has been, particularly to my colleague in Education where they have been building school classrooms and so on.  The reality is that lottery tickets are mobile.  People can transfer money electronically these days.  The whole of Durban -it is just as easy to invest in the Gauteng based lottery as it would be in the local lottery.  In fact there is no prohibition on one province selling its lottery tickets in another province.  The reality is simply this, at the end, we have got to face a situation, how best can we maximise the return for our own people and it is only in that regard, it is not any disloyalty to the people that have been running Lotto in our Province.

In regard to the hon Mr Brian Edwards and legal action.  Our Administration, and I think I speak on behalf of all members of Cabinet who are here, are not afraid of legal action.  If the process is found by due process of law to being defective, we will be the first persons to welcome that finding and to insist that it be put right.  Some of the rumoured reasons as to why there might be legal action I find hard to accept.  I do know that yesterday a firm of attorneys phoned me to find out what my particular physical address was so that they could serve papers on me.  I do not know what those papers contain, I will find out perhaps when I get back late tonight or tomorrow morning.

Mr Speaker, in regard to the casino licensing process.  I just want to put a cap on that issue.  I do not think it was appropriate that it be discussed in a debate on the amendment to an Act where those amendments have nothing to do with that process.  It was not appropriate.  I therefore do not intend to take it any further.  The Cabinet intends to make sure that it is not found wanting in the way that it handles this issue.

I would place on record of course that one of the dilemmas that has caused our present dilemma, is the fact that once upon a time we had five regions.  We now have four.  The whole idea of the regions was to make sure that you could never have one casino on top of another one.  Nevertheless, we have got to live by the fact that a decision was taken to amalgamate two regions and the moment that amalgamation was done, it made it possible for one casino to be on top of another.  We are going to try and deal with this in the most sensible and objective way that is possible.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Just grant one licence.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  We are taking advice from a huge number of people and very little of the advice is shared by all the parties concerned.  There is no industry that I know of that has a greater degree of vested interest in the outcome.  We know that, not millions, but billions of rand is at stake here.  When there is billions of rand at stake, what is a couple of R100,000 spent on a court case on the off-chance that you might get your way.

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTION.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Well, no, no, the hon Mr Rajbansi knows more about those kind of things than I do.  [LAUGHTER]  We have gathered together a legal team that is on call, that is very well briefed, that is learning from all the precedents that have been set in the court cases that have taken place in the other provinces.  When the attack comes, our defence will be ready, provided our case is defensible, of course, and that is important.

In closing, Mr Speaker, on the question of route and site.  I want to place on record that we have urged the Department of Trade and Industry, to expedite the issue of the regulations.  We know that the National Board considered issues related to those regulations last week.  We took a formal decision in our Cabinet that even if they award the routes and sites on a phased basis, that we should support the phasing in of route and sites, rather than saying we must wait until we can do the whole lot at once.

It needs to be placed on record, hon members, Mr Speaker, that we are now beginning to discover some fundamental errors that were made in this whole process.  The first of those fundamental errors was to believe that this country could support 40 casino licences.  However, that decision has been taken and 40 are going to be allocated.  The fear is that in order to keep those 40 viable, you cannot have a thriving route and site industry in addition to the 40 casinos.  

There are schools of thought that are saying in order to save the 40 casinos, you must limit the route and site.  The fact of the matter is that it is being said right now that the wonderful new casino in Secunda, in Mphumalanga is in the last throws of death already and the Sun Dome in Johannesburg has only been open for three weeks.  It is said that the Carousel north of Pretoria has got no business at all.  What we have to realise is that there is only so much money available to be spent on this activity.  

Sadly, the people that realise least that they should not be gambling, are the ones whose circumstances are such that they are just wishing for that little bit of luck that might elevate them out of poverty into riches.  They are tempted to gamble.  I think that is one of the major problems.

One of the things we have got to avoid at all costs in this Province is what I have already seen here in South Africa, a casino in the middle of a shopping complex, next-door to the food supermarket.  Then they wonder why the youngsters that are sent to go and buy the food come home with no food, because on the way they were tempted to play the slot machines.  This is one of the sadnesses.

Please be assured, however, all members, that the members of Cabinet are only too aware of their responsibilities in regard to this whole casino licence issue.  They are very sensitive about it and we will do our best not for the process to reflect poorly on our Legislature and on our Government.  I thank you very much.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  We have come to the end of the debate.  I therefore put the question.

KWAZULU-NATAL GAMBLING AMENDMENT BILL - PASSED

THE SPEAKER:  I will therefore ask the Secretary to read the short title.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Gambling Amendment Bill.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  We have come to the end of our Order Paper today.  I do not know whether there is a Minister who has got something to announce before we close?

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  No announcements, Mr Speaker.  Thank you.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 17:40 SINE DIE     

	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	EIGHTH SITTING - FIRST SITTING DAY
	WEDNESDAY, 02 DECEMBER 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 14:17 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  The House resumes.

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

THE SPEAKER:  I would like to report on the CPA International Conference which took place in New Zealand.  The report has been presented to me and I have directed that it be distributed to all hon members for your information.  Thank you.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, hon Members of the House, Ladies and Gentlemen.  First of all, I would like to add my congratulations on your accession to this high office, Mr Speaker.  On the day you were nominated and elected by this hon House, I was away, so I did not have an opportunity to join my colleagues in wishing you well with this very important task.

As I said in the past, the role of the Speaker is a very important one.  It is not just simply sitting on that hon seat during the sessions of Parliament, but it is one of co-leadership in the Province with the Premier and the Cabinet.  I am quite confident that you will discharge your duties with honour and dignity, knowing that you have had previous experience in this position during the KwaZulu Government period.

I do hope that my colleagues will show you the appropriate respect and will honour this important office, lest they feel the wrath of your power.  This is an important Province in our democratic South Africa.  We are trying to set a good example though proper conduct in Parliament and through pursuing an effective legislative programme, which takes in the needs of our Province into account, but also addresses the needs of South Africa as a whole, particularly in the area of human development as well as economic growth.  We are already contributing as a Province.  About 16% of the national GDP, we want to grow this amount.  In order to grow confidence, business confidence, investor confidence in our Province, we have to be seen as effective and serious legislators who create the appropriate framework that will underpin investment and economic growth.

Under your leadership, sir, I hope we will achieve all these objectives and improve our credibility with the people of KwaZulu-Natal.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I have pleasure in tabling two reports before you, sir, and the hon House.  The first is the Fifty-Second Annual Report of the Natal Water Services Advisory Board, and it spells out the activities for the period 1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998.

The second report is the Annual Financial Report of the Provincial Housing Board and Mr Speaker, although it is not a legal requirement for this to be tabled until our Act has been passed, I think it will make very good reading and will explain to members the activities that the Board has engaged in for the period 1997/98.  Thank you.

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Speaker, I submit the report of the Portfolio Committee on the Housing Bill.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes?

MR EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  There are still items to be tabled under reports and I rise on behalf of the hon Mr Volker who is away in Cape Town, looking after members' interests and their pension funds.  I table two reports, the first being the Resolutions of the Provincial Public Accounts Standing Committee for the period 1 May 1998 to 30 November 1998, after dealing with the following reports and Resolutions 76 to 84, one being the report of the Auditor-General on the accounts of the Provincial Administration of KwaZulu-Natal for 1995/96.

Second, the report of the Auditor-General on the accounts of the Provincial Administration of KwaZulu-Natal, Tribal and Community Authorities Department, Traditional and Environmental Affairs for 1995/96 and 1996/97 financial years.

Thirdly, the report of the Auditor-General on the performance audit of asset management completed at the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration Department of Agriculture.

Fourth, performance audit report of the Auditor-General on the administration of the Wentworth and King Edward VIII Hospitals at the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration Department of Health.

Fifth, report of the Auditor-General on the performance audit for the provision of buildings and structures completed at the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration Department of Works during September 1997.  That is the report from the Public Accounts Standing Committee.

I further, Mr Speaker, wish to table a report of the Auditor-General on the accounts of Vote 3 Agriculture for the year 1996/97.

THE SPEAKER:  Any other reports or papers?  Let us move on to Item No 7 on the Order Paper.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

MR M R MZOBE:  Mr Speaker, I rise to give notice that on the next sitting day I will move as follows:

	This House noting with deep concern:

	1.	Inability of the IEC to conduct timeously the Election Registration Process in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal;

	2.	General UNPREPAREDNESS - and evident inability to attract suitable staff to conduct the process an example being; that the IEC is five thousand officials short for KwaZulu-Natal.

	3.	Contrary to the plans announced by the IEC there is an acute shortage of volunteers notwithstanding the IFP having registered thousands of volunteers to assist in the process.

	4.	The IEC should be compensating those volunteers whose offer to assist has subsequently been withdrawn by the IEC.

	5.	And stating that it will be a sad day indeed when the gross inefficiency of the IEC robs the people of this Province of their inalienable and constitutional right to vote.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	Noting that today is the last sitting day of this hon House for the year 1998:

	The ANC wishes all members and staff of our Legislature:-
	-	compliments of the Season; 
	-	a good rest; and 
	-	a peaceful and productive 1999.  

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

MR J C MATTHEE:  Mr Speaker, I wish to give notice that I will move the following:

	Noting that the Constitution guarantees every citizen the right to exercise his or her vote in the election of this House, severely censures the National Government and the IEC for their callous disregard of the interests of the voters and for the incompetence and lack of ability to adopt procedures to ensure that every citizen will be properly registered as voters in the forthcoming National and Provincial Elections, and further notes, with dismay that the Department of Home Affairs has failed in their duty to return citizens ID documents to them:

	This House calls on the Government to remedy this situation immediately.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, I would not be violating the same motion clause because my angle on the election is completely different.  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the Minority Front, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	That our beloved country and the whole world has hailed the free and fair first democratic elections that were held in 1994 and the people of South Africa now have to realise that subsequent elections are not the freedom elections, and voter apathy and the lack of preparedness on the part of the IEC is something the Government should take seriously.  
	There is concern in KwaZulu-Natal that the final voting district maps were only available last night in certain areas and the public at large appear to be confused as to where registration is to take place.  This week an advertisement appeared in the media advising potential voters that maps are available at certain offices and it must be realised that the average citizens are no cartographers to understand maps, etcetera.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order.  Is this a motion or is this a speech, Mr Speaker, and I would like you to rule on that.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I may want to reply to that.  This hon member is fighting the ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order!

MR A RAJBANSI:  ...he will be kicked out by the Bengal Tiger.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I request your indulgence on the point of order I raised and I request that you also address the continued speaking of the hon member in front of me.

THE SPEAKER:  I will do that.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Can I reply to that, Mr Speaker?

THE SPEAKER:  Please, please, this is not a debate.  What I have asked for is that if a member has got a motion or a bill, this is not the time to debate it.  Thank you.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I crave your indulgence.  My motion is no longer than the other motions that were moved.

	Further it be noted that during the 1996 local government elections enumerators visited places of residence in order to get voters to register and with the expected low registration in our Province the House calls upon the Government to allocate more funds to the IEC so that door to door registration of voters can take place by the employment of independent enumerators.

THE SPEAKER:  I think it is very important if my memory serves me well to remind members that each member should, when he raises a motion, not use more than 200 words.  If I am not mistaken.  I will request members to abide by that.  Thank you.  Hon member?

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Speaker, I shall move at the next sitting day that:

	That the Minister of Housing address the following with the introduction of the Rural Housing Policy.  This will have an adverse effect on the current medium term expenditure framework which has already been sanctioned by the Department of State Expenditure in that the said allocation to the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration does not take into consideration, funding for rural housing.  Additional funding will have to be accessed by the National Department of Housing for the purpose of rural housing subsidies.  I thank you.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, hon member, Mr Haygarth?

MR G HAYGARTH:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I will move on the next sitting day the following motion:

	Noting the number of Reports of the Auditor-General that have been tabled in this House from time to time and the recommendation of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts thereon, this House, aware of the importance of adequate follow up on matters such as fraud, corruption and mismanagement therein in the public interest, directs the Executive Board to set aside adequate time for the House to debate the issues and receive reports of all remedial actions taken by effective parties.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member?

MRS C E GALEA:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall, on the next sitting day of this House, move:

	That this House noting that:

	-	the domestic violence Bill will replace current legislation.

	-	the Bill provides for greater involvement of the police services.

	-	the Bill recognises physical, sexual, emotional, economic and other forms of violence.

	Therefore calls upon this House:

	-	To ensure that all departments involved have staff members well informed and trained so that the survivors of domestic violence will have easy access to legal remedies.

	-	That community education on the rights of victims and how to access that service are available to all.

	-	That the women's caucus get a women's or gender desk at Parliament with a data base of organisations available to assist those who need help speedily.  We are four-and-a-half years down the line and have not got a desk yet.  Thank you.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Any other motion or bill?  Yes, Mr Hamilton?

MR A J HAMILTON:  Mr Speaker, I did speak to you and ask your indulgence.  I would like to table a report on the Portfolio Committee ...

THE SPEAKER:  Just now, I am still dealing with the motions and the bills.  Thank you.

MR A J HAMILTON:  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Any other motions or bills?  No.  Thank you.  Then I will give an opportunity to the hon member Mr Hamilton to table his report, thank you.

FURTHER TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS

MR A J HAMILTON:  I would like to table the report on the Portfolio Committee on Economic Affairs and Tourism, KwaZulu-Natal Rehabilitation Trust Fund Bill.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Then we proceed to Item No 8 on the Order Paper.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

8.1	QUESTIONS

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, can I raise certain queries.  One is that there were questions raised by me which were not answered previously, and an undertaking was given that these questions will be answered at a later date.

Secondly, I notice that the hon member Mr Wessel Nel of the DP previously objected to certain deliberations in this House. There are certain questions where the tag for oral reply is being placed, but in fact, in my considered opinion, they are for written reply.  They expect lengthy answers and I request your ruling on these questions.  Each member is entitled to have answers to two questions per session and I believe that one member of this hon House is trying to use back-door methods to violate this Rule.  Some of these questions are for written answers.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, could I address you on this issue?

THE SPEAKER:  Before you reply to that, Mr Nel, I would like to bring this to the attention of the House that in terms of Rule 149(1) the questions must be delivered to the Secretary for placement on the Order Paper, ten working days before the day on which the reply is required to be given.  This requirement might have not been met.  As a result you will find that most of the questions do not appear on the Order Paper.

Another issue is that in terms of Rule 145 (2) most of the questions are placed on the Order Paper in terms of this Rule 150, as standing over questions which are to be placed on the Order Paper, for oral reply and replies to written questions are not received within 10 working days.  This Rule does not place a limit on questions per member in respect of standing over questions.  I think that it answers what the hon member Mr Rajbansi has said.  Thank you.

MR A RAJBANSI:  With your permission, Mr Speaker, I requested a ruling that some of these questions really should be for written reply.

AN HON MEMBER:  Why?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Especially one member deliberately puts for oral reply because he wants cheap publicity.  That will not work in this Province.

THE SPEAKER:  In the interim, we will continue with our Order Paper as it stands.  Thank you.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, just on a point of order - and I am not going back to the questions - it is just the Order Paper of the day.  Mr Speaker, earlier today, in terms of Rule 101, I did address to you a request for debate on a matter of urgent public importance, basically being that Parliament discusses the campaign to register voters and related preparations for the 1999 general election.  It is a very important matter, Mr Speaker, however you have ruled, and you have considered the matter and you have written back to say you have declined the request for the debate.  One respects it is your ruling, but it is a most important matter.  Right now the registration is in total disarray and I believe it should have been ...

MRS C M CRONJE:  Mr Speaker, what is the point of order that Mr Edwards is rising on?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  I will repeat the point of order.  The point of order was, the Order Paper for the day, I did request in terms of Rule 101 that this be placed on the Order Paper.  I am just noting that it has not been placed on the Order Paper.

THE SPEAKER:  Let us continue.  We are now dealing with the questions.

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS APPEAR IN THE IVORY PAGES AT THE BACK OF THIS VOLUME


THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  That now concludes our questions and answers for today.  I wish now to proceed to the next item on the Order Paper and that is 8.2.

8.2	KWAZULU-NATAL HOUSING BILL

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will request the hon Minister to introduce the Bill.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, hon members of this House.  It is indeed an honour for me to present before this House the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Housing Bill.  Historically, the delivery of housing in KwaZulu-Natal has suffered from inequitable policies.

My Department has, in consultation with the relevant role players in Housing, drafted a Provincial Housing Bill to address the housing need and the peculiar circumstances surrounding housing delivery in this Province.

In terms of Section 7(2)(b) of the Housing Act, 107 of 1997, provinces are to establish their own provincial legislation for housing delivery.  Treasury approval has been obtained and their amendments have been effected on all three versions of the Bill.  The Bill was initiated by my predecessor, the hon Minister Miller, and the first draft was approved by Cabinet on 26 November 1997 per Resolution No 503.  Cabinet approved the final draft of the Provincial Housing Bill on 10 June 1998 as per Cabinet Resolution No 206.

After wide public consultation and upon consideration of all public comments, the Bill was passed by the Housing Portfolio Committee on 2 November 1998.  I wish to, Mr Speaker, express my appreciation to the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee and all the members for the part they played in the final draft.

The primary objectives of the Provincial Housing Bill is to:

	-	determine all the principles, which apply to housing development so as to provide for the effective delivery of housing to the people of KwaZulu-Natal.

	-	establish a Provincial Housing Development Board, which will administer national and provincial housing programmes, in terms of Chapter II of the Bill.

	-	provide for the financing of housing programmes by the Province of KwaZulu-Natal as embodied in Chapter III of the Bill.

	-	it also stipulates the role of the Department, in terms of Chapter IV.

	-	it further stipulates the role of Municipalities, which is embodied in Chapter V.

	-	it also addresses any peculiar circumstances within the Province of KwaZulu-Natal; and

	-	it establishes a separate housing development fund in terms of paragraph II.  Chapter III of the Bill.

Mr Speaker, I wish to define the institutional roles and responsibilities with regard to provincial government, especially in respect of housing.  Provincial government has the mandate to determine provincial policy with the proviso that such policy facilitates the effective delivery of housing within the Province.  Such policy must at all times be within the framework of national policy guidelines. Furthermore, any policy legislation that is implemented must provide for the momentum needed to drive the delivery process, whilst simultaneously allowing for the effective co-ordination of housing development within the Province.  All role players in the establishment of housing opportunities must be involved and to this end the Provincial Housing Bill realises this objective by allowing for the participation and empowerment of local and regional councils, which are the third spheres of government, which is very close to the people on the ground, to perform this very important function.

The main objective of the Provincial Housing Bill is to provide for the effective management of a provincial strategy which will empower this Province of KwaZulu-Natal to facilitate project applications, evaluate and recommend projects, monitor projects, monitor the provincial housing strategy, lend strength and support to municipalities in their endeavours to manage housing development.

There should be no division between national, provincial and local government with regard to their co-operation and participation in the decision-making process to achieve housing goals.  The links between these pivotal support structures should be fully utilised in order to provide the firm foundation upon which our housing policy framework can rest and deliver.

The essence of the Provincial Housing Bill, Mr Speaker, embodies the will of Government to realise the function of a holistic, sustainable and integrated housing development process.

I now table the Bill for adoption by the House.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I wish to take this opportunity to remind hon members, as well as the public in the public gallery, that cell phones are not to be used in the Chamber, or in the gallery.  I request everybody please to switch their cell phones off.

In accordance with my amended list of speakers, I will request the Chairperson of the Housing Portfolio Committee, Mr Naicker, to address the House for 10 minutes.  Mr Naicker?

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Speaker, the KwaZulu-Natal Housing Bill can be regarded as a milestone in pursuance of our mission in this Province to provide homes to our people, built very much, sir, on the foundation of our Provincial Housing Act.

To give you a brief summary, Mr Speaker, Chapter 1 is the interpretation and purpose of the Act.  Chapter II is the KwaZulu-Natal Housing Development Board.  Chapter III refers to the financial matters.  Chapter IV is the role of the Department.  Chapter V is Municipalities.  Chapter VI is land matters.  Chapter VII is traditional authorities and Chapter VIII Miscellaneous.

Mr Speaker, the KwaZulu-Natal Housing Bill, 1998, was referred by the Speaker to the Housing Portfolio Committee on  2 July 1998.  The Bill was published in the Government Gazette on 13 August 1998.  The Department of Housing presented the Bill to the Committee on 31 August 1998.  The legal services, were rendered by Advocate M B Ndokweni who found that the Bill has been edited in accordance with the law.

The process of public hearings were discussed at a meeting held on 31 August 1998.  Public hearings were advertised in The Natal Witness, The Vryheid Herald, The Ladysmith Gazette, The Zululand Observer, Kokstad Advertiser and Illanga Newspapers.  Hearings were held in Ladysmith, Empangeni, ~Ulundi~, Durban and Pietermaritzburg.  Notices were sent to TLC, Radio Lotus, East Coast, UKhozi and to PPP for dissemination to NGO's, etcetera.

Submissions were received from TLC members of the community, Institute for Housing of Southern Africa, the Northern Region Project Managers for the Department of Local Government and Housing, Housing Association, the Malevu Investment, Disabled People's Organisation, Department of Local Government and Housing, Department of Land Affairs and KwaZulu-Natal Joint Housing Forum.

At all these hearings, there was one very very important characteristic as far as the representations were concerned, and that was the absence of councillors.  Secondly, there were instances where community leaders came on crutches to make representations, seeking further clarification on matters pertaining to housing.  So that in itself was a demonstration of the emotional feeling they have with regards to housing.

The Committee considered public submissions and agreed to the amendments that were discussed at a committee meeting which was held on 2 November 1998 at which the National Party, the IFP and the ANC were represented.  The Committee unanimously supported the Bill and the attached amendments.

Our legal advisors, Mrs N Naidoo and Mrs N Turnbull, were present at the hearing, in order to advise the Committee on the legality and suggested changes.  It was further supported by senior department officials, Mr Seymour Bedderson, Mrs M Godliman, Mrs R Soodeyall and committee clerk, Mrs Sithole and the entire Portfolio Committee.

Section 2(b) of the Housing Act, 107 of 1997, is explicit with regards to the necessity of introducing our own Bill, an inclusive Bill, which will not warrant the continued reference to the National Act.  One of the main elements of this Bill is the retention of the Housing Development Board and its composition in line with Section 8 of the National Housing Act.  The Housing Portfolio Committee and the Housing Development Board forms part of the housing process, with the Board being a juristic entity and this Bill provides that base.

The Minister touched on peculiar circumstances.  Unfortunately there is nothing in the Bill defining peculiar circumstances, but one could describe it as unique, unusual or unfamiliar situations prevailing in KwaZulu-Natal, particularly from the topography of this Province.  I place on record my appreciation to the Housing Portfolio Committee, the Department officials, the Minister and the entire Department, together with the legislative official for the co-operation towards the realisation of this, the KwaZulu-Natal Housing Bill.

This Bill was supposed to be heard on 10 November.  I was advised by the Chief Whip that it would appear, but due to circumstances it did not appear on the Order Paper of 10 November, hence, we are debating it here today.  I want to place on record my appreciation to all the role players.  I believe that this Bill has come at one of the most important times, at the tail-end of 1998.  Together we are laying the foundation for 1999.  We will begin again to build homes, brick by brick, for our nation as a whole.  I support this Bill.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I just crave your indulgence.  We heard about the report of the Portfolio Committee, but could the hon Chairperson of the Committee place on record proposals that were rejected by the Portfolio Committee, because I can pre-empt somebody placing an amendment to delay the passage of this Bill, for an ulterior motive.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, I do not know about the report of the Portfolio Committee.  What we will do is, the report has been tabled and we will use the report as such.  When we debate, I think that amendments will either be made or not made.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, normally, amendments that have been rejected by the Portfolio Committee may come up as an amendment, and that amendment can be thrown out of the window.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  That is why I am saying that the procedures are clear.  Let us just deal with the debate now.  I will then call upon the next speaker, Miss Barrett, who will have 12 minutes to address the House.  Miss Barrett, please?

MISS B BARRETT:  Mr Speaker, hon members.  Since the passing of the National Housing Act earlier this year, KwaZulu-Natal is one of the first provinces to pass its own provincial legislation on housing.  This Bill is important to us, because it allows us to legislate in an area in which we have provincial competence, and to draft provincial housing policy which takes into account the characteristics specific to our Province.  It is therefore, understandable that certain aspects in provincial legislation can substantially differ from national legislation, as long as it falls within the broad framework of national legislation and policy, which is limited to the norms and standards necessary to create uniformity throughout the country.

It is in this regard that there are certain areas in housing development where KwaZulu-Natal has been placed at a distinct disadvantage.

Firstly, the national housing policy's insistence for financial equity between provinces has not resulted in product equity, because in some provinces, like KwaZulu-Natal, certain physical factors have lead to a significant increase in the developmental costs of a serviced site, thus reducing the residual amount available for consolidation.

Whilst a 15% allowance has been provided to compensate for any topographical, geotechnical or locational problems, this allowance is necessary for most housing projects in KwaZulu-Natal.  The housing budget should, therefore, be revisited to compensate those provinces, like KwaZulu-Natal, that experience general topographical and geotechnical problems, instead of forcing these provinces to make provision for this additional expense from their existing budgets.  More explicitly, the Provincial Housing Board should be allocated an additional 15% allocation, over and above its housing budgetary allocation.

The topographical problems of KwaZulu-Natal are also not dealt with in the national "Norms and Standards" document, which is due to form part of the National Housing Code.  I am fully supportive of the National Housing Minister's attempt to set standards, because I am of the opinion that certain developers have maximised their profits to the detriment of poor communities, by installing high levels of services, and substantially marking up the costs of these installations.  Local authorities too, have been demanding unacceptably high levels of services in low cost housing projects, which is not only unaffordable to the beneficiary, but erodes into the meagre once-off subsidy provided.

The problem, however, is that the national standards set are almost impossible to achieve in KwaZulu-Natal.  For example, the minimum level of service permitted for all future housing projects is VIP sanitation and graded or gravel paved roads.  I agree with the standard, as it is affordable, and if local authorities do not like it, there is nothing stopping them from paying for the difference to have these services upgraded.  However, this service level is not always feasible.  Due to the geotechnical conditions in some areas in the Province, with clay and shale, VIP's are not appropriate and could develop into a health hazard.  Also the construction of a gravel road for a project along the coast could spell disaster with the next rains, as the road would be washed away.  The alternate is tarred roads with water-borne sewerage but these levels of services cost much more, increasing the price of a serviced site by as much as R5 000, which is R5 000 less than what can be spent on the top structure.  It would also exceed the R7 500 maximum expenditure the National Minister has set for serviced sites.

It is for this reason that the Housing Portfolio Committee asked for the inclusion of a section which will permit our Minister of Housing to publish a Provincial Housing Code.  This Housing Code will clearly set out housing policy and norms and standards appropriate to the conditions of KwaZulu-Natal, while still falling within national framework legislation.

Another important feature of the Provincial Housing Bill is that it firmly establishes the necessity for a Provincial Housing Development Board.  As stated in the National White Paper on Housing, Provincial Housing Boards were established to ensure accountability within the provincial Departments of Housing; to make sustainable, non-political decisions regarding housing development using public funds, and to broaden decision-making to the major stakeholders in the housing delivery process.  Hence, the fund allocation and policy development functions were placed in the hands of this legitimate, statutory body which would be representative of key stakeholders in the respective provinces.

In this regard, Section 5.2.4 of the White Paper on Housing reads:

	Government is committed towards the creation of statutory advisory and policy execution overseeing bodies for housing which introduce key stakeholder representation into the processes of policy development and fund allocation.  To be effective it is believed that membership of these bodies should be determined on a representative, (or nominated) basis, through an inclusive transparent and democratic process.

	The participation of stakeholder groupings and structures of civil society in the process of policy development and public fund allocation, is believed to be of critical importance to secure the necessary commitment of all relevant parties for strategies and policies adopted.  By informing the deliberations of these structures with inputs from nominees of the various stakeholders and civil society groupings in the housing sector, balanced and practical advice and decision-making can be achieved.

I have read this section in order to remind the House why the Provincial Housing Development Boards were established in the first place - and as long as South Africa strives towards democratic, transparent governance, the need for these boards will not go away.  I know that there have been instances in this country where Provincial Housing Boards have not operated reliably or honestly, but invariably this reflects directly on the institutional capacity of the provincial departments and Ministries within which these boards operate.  In KwaZulu-Natal, however, the Provincial Housing Development Board, under the chairmanship of Mr Charles Van Eck, has a sterling track record, and in the allocation of the provincial housing budget, has always erred on the side of prudence and good governance, and has fought hard to keep politics out of housing delivery.

Personally, I was appalled at the recent exposure of fraud in housing delivery in this Province.  What was reported by a official employed by the Heath Commission was none other than a gross distortion of the facts.  Let me use this opportunity to set the record straight.  What happened was that sensitive information provided to the Heath Commission by our Department of Housing, regarding suspected fraud within the housing delivery process, had been fed to the media prior to presenting its investigation findings to its client - the actual Department.  The Provincial Housing Board openly admits instances of fraud had been identified, and this is precisely why the Heath Commission was appointed, with the clear brief to investigate instances of fraud brought to their attention by the Department, with a view to quantifying these and collecting the funds.

To imply that the Department itself is responsible for the fraud, and that the situation in housing is desperate, is totally unfounded.  The message sent to the industry was clearly damaging.  To date the Province has provided subsidies to approximately 140 463 households, which equates to an actual expenditure of R1,9 billion.  The cases of fraud under investigation occurred mainly with the individual subsidies.  This suspected fraud was to the value of 0.75% of the total subsidy allocations in the Province.  Thus far, only R390 000 is proven fraud, or 0.02% and 10 individuals have been arrested and convicted.  It was reported that 50% of all subsidies allocated in this Province were fraudulent and until such time that the problem areas have been resolved and loopholes plugged, no new monies will be paid to conveyancers or new individual subsidies approved by the Provincial Housing Development Board.

I do not have enough time to speak further on the Provincial Housing Bill, but I would like to end with a plea to this House, that all measures must be taken to ensure that discrimination in whatever form, be it race or political bias, is kept out of the housing delivery process.  The key players in housing in this province have fought long and hard for this principle, and it is now, in the few months preceding the national elections, that we must ensure that this principle is upheld.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member Miss Barrett.  I now call upon Mr Bhamjee, who has nine minutes.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  On behalf of our Party we wish to congratulate the Minister for tabling this Bill.  We think it is an historical Bill and we believe that it will make inroads as far as the delivery of housing opportunities is concerned.  However, there are certain processes that unfolded in relation to the hearing of the Bill.

We established the following fact via the South African Institute for Housing: They declared that they had heard, for the first time, via the Gazette that there was a Housing Bill.  We were a bit disappointed when we heard this, because the South African Institute for Housing is probably one of the major actors as far as housing needs in this Province is concerned.  We then investigated the matter and we established that this Bill was not widely circulated, at the TLC levels and at the Metro Council level and hence, when it was gazetted, we established very very clearly that the question of consultation was highly desirable.

If the Metro Council and the South African Institute for Housing has not been consulted, then when such a document is presented to us and sufficient consultation has not taken place.  The Portfolio Committee members will have to establish what the nature, or what kind of consultation actually took place.  We trust you will take this criticism very very seriously.

The second point we wish to make, Mr Minister, is that the essence of the housing policy, is clearly aimed at targeting the poorest of the poor.  It is important to note that. My colleague, Belinda, clearly outlined some of the weaknesses in the housing policy and in the subsidy scheme.  In spite of these weaknesses, nationally, significant steps have been taken in terms of providing housing opportunities.  It has been recorded by the Housing Facts Issue No 22 of 1998, that the national housing delivery statistics reveal that at the end of September 1998, a total of 965,754 subsidies had been approved.  Very close to the million target.  

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  90 532 Individual subsidies have been approved.  629 449 Houses have been completed or are under construction.  Nationally, 2.2 million people have been offered a housing opportunity, or shelter over their heads.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  The right-wingers on my left did nothing for the poorest of the poor.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  The black people were totally denied access to housing opportunities.  Now, for the first time, you have national and provincial authorities going out to address the needs of the poorest of the poor.

Let us see what our Province has done.  Our Province has provided 158 000 housing opportunities to the poorest of the poor.  That section of the community that earns less than R800 a month.  More importantly, 106 000 housing opportunities are either under construction, or the houses have been completed.  This indicates to us that the Provincial Housing Board, under the leadership of the Minister and Mr Miller, in the past, has clearly put a process into operation.  

They have clearly given instructions to the Housing Board to "Go out there and deliver".  Some would argue that the houses are small, but then they do not understand the housing policy.  The housing policy starts off by saying that there is a core house, it is a housing opportunity and built in this process is the principle of incremental housing.  But you have got to rely on your own savings.  For the first time you have land tenure.

More importantly, hon Minister, the negative elements on the left are making a noise because their ~Apartheid~ cities denied black people the opportunity to live in the city centre.

AN HON MEMBER:  Tell them, tell them.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  With the land tenure the poorest of the poor can live close to their place of work.  They now have an opportunity to build a healthy environment and if we deny them that opportunity, we are creating havoc.  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, that is a point of order.  Can I request the member to resume his seat.  There is a point of order.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Is the hon member prepared to take a question?

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Yes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Is it not correct that it was the National Party that had a policy that there shall be no housing for blacks in urban areas, aided ruthlessly by the DP ...

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  No, Mr Rajbansi, when you stand up, you stand up on a point of order.  [LAUGHTER]  You do not stand up for that.  I rule that that is not a point of order.  Now will the hon member proceed.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Well, thank you hon member for making that point clear.  Let us now look at where our housing opportunities fit into the international scenario and then we will be able to address the issue.  Professor Dan Smith, in a recent study, indicated that whether a delivery record described, as I have done, reflects substantial or only modest success gains.  It must be viewed in an international context.  

Amongst the most often quoted instances of big delivery successes, are Singapore, Sweden and Cuba.  Singapore delivered 585 000 units over a 28 year period.  In the first five years of the programme only 55 430 were delivered.  

South Africa has delivered close on to 900 000 housing opportunities.  By any standards, Tucker goes on to say, that it is generally wise to be cautious whilst interpreting statistics, it is difficult not to be impressed with what has been achieved over the past four years in South Africa.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  This is a dream.  600 000 Housing opportunities, to answer you hon member, have been created.  We are saying that you have got a very powerful document, hon Minister.  You need to look into the concept of social housing, social compact people's housing process and take the process forward.

This Bill and the housing policy gives you the opportunity to empower the poorest of the poor to take command of their lives.  Capacity building, skills in terms of brick making, cement mixing, a whole host of opportunities are there.  If you accept the principle of the people's housing process, you will be creating jobs in a very meaningful way.  

People will participate in the process as you yourself witnessed in Ladysmith and Newcastle.  Here you find that companies, coming from disadvantaged communities, mind you, who are sensitive to the needs of the poorest of the poor, are not charging exorbitant prices.  They are going down to the grassroots to create and make available housing opportunities and living opportunities.  They are open to criticism.

Hon Minister, do not listen to the negative elements, they will mislead you.  Listen to the people on the ground, like what you are, and a whole host of other members of the Board did, and we will learn something.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Hon Minister, we are saying that there are weaknesses in the process, but collectively.  As we started to apply our minds as we did in the Housing Board and in the Portfolio Committee, together we managed to address one very important issue.  We said that the poorest of the poor is the target.  

Thus far the people who are making a noise in this House, their partners outside this House have failed to come in to assist with their wealth in the housing process.  Their partners in the banks have gone against the Botshabelo Agreement.  They were supposed to have come in and assisted the poorest of the poor.  Where are they now, when we need them?  They are hiding and they are talking about a host of other issues.  They are too embarrassed, Mr Speaker.  We need to encourage them so that they will come out with their monies to deliver for the poorest of the poor.  It is a challenge to us who come from the disadvantaged communities to ensure that the process moves forward.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon member has one last minute.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Mr Speaker, hon Minister, we strongly feel that if you have the support of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Housing Board and if you take on board the Portfolio Committee, then we think we will eliminate negative thoughts about the housing process.  It will create the space for creativity and innovation and silence the conservative elements in our society.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon Mr Nel, who has two minutes.

MR W U NEL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  By all accounts, Mr Speaker, our Province and the Department, ably assisted by the Provincial Housing Board, has done a very credible job in terms of delivery of housing within the financial constraints that are so obvious and real.  This Bill will indeed assist further to enable them in that process of continuing housing delivery.  I will stress, however, that I think there still needs to be a re-examination of certain aspects of the Bill, and the Department should ask itself whether it is achieving exactly what it set out to do.

In particular, I will draw attention to Clause 4 of this Bill, dealing with the composition and the appointment of the Board. It seems that the intention was that of the number of appointees to the Board, 12, four should have been representative of sectors supplying financing of housing goods, and that another four should be representative of consumers of housing goods, and the other four be representative of institutions regulating housing in the Province.

That may well be the intention, but that is not the effect of what is written in this Bill.  The Minister should have a careful look at it.  What is written here, is simply that those sectors should make nominations, which nominations could, for argument's sake, come from any other sector, or include any other people.  I think the Minister should revisit that.

I note with interest, also, that he has excluded the appointment to the Board of people who are members of third tier government councils.  I do not know why that has happened.  I can understand that perhaps there is some justification for re-examining the involvement of members of this Parliament or the National Parliament, although, to be fair, the two members who have acted on that Board until now, have by all reports made a very valuable contribution.

Mr Speaker, there are things that need to be done to expedite the delivery of housing.  In particular, whilst we have produced quite a lot in this Province, we should be looking increasingly to self-help schemes, where all that is secured initially is the land and tenure and that further finance is then advanced to people to help themselves to provide the superstructures.

Obviously that is not always possible in high density residential areas, urban areas, but there are many areas in this Province where that is a possibility and not only will it assist people to help themselves to acquire more than they would otherwise get for their money, but it also has the additional benefit of assisting communities to enhance their own skills levels.  With those words, our Party, the Democratic Party would support this Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  I call upon Mr Rajbansi, who has one minute.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, thank you.  Today is a great day for KwaZulu-Natal, because we are the only Province in this entire country that is retaining their Provincial Board.  We must congratulate the Minister for this.  

When a country decides to give housing its high priority, there is progress, then there is job creation and there is stability.  This can be studied in any part of the world.  

What I want to say, Mr Minister, is that housing delivery is questionable.  I do not think we are fair to the black masses of South Africa, for getting a national and provincial policy to provide a particular stereotype housing.  I want to appeal to the hon Minister that this legislation and the national policy allows for some sort of provincial leeway, or provincial autonomy.

There are certain provinces in this country that are doing things their own way in order to satisfy provincial requirements (or a particular circumstance).  We have problems with the topography of this Province.  We must change the policy, change our style and determine our own provincial strategy and for these reasons, Mr Speaker, the Minority Front supports the Bill.  

You will notice, we speak a little, but we are a party of action, great action.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I will call upon Mr Mkhwanazi to also speak little and have more action.  [LAUGHTER]

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for your comment.  Mr Speaker, the PAC supports the Bill, because the Bill takes care of the people who have been oppressed and were deprived of roofs over their heads, and of land in the land of their forefathers.

While we support the Bill, we also congratulate the Minister and the Housing Board for having achieved a lot in terms of the number of housing opportunities.  We, as the PAC, also feel that while a lot is being done, it also leaves much to be desired.  Yes, the people do have roofs over their heads.  They have little pieces of land, but we wish the people could be given more land, in order to build bigger houses.  Well, a start has been made.  

What we are appealing for is that there is room for improvement, because the houses that are being built are too small and they are the same type.  They are better than what we call, [a shack].  At least the people have water and we appreciate that.  We need to improve the situation because the people look across the road and see what are called houses and they look at what they have and [No man popular with women can be happy when his rival is lamenting.  No man popular with women lives a comfortable life while a rival laments].  I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Mkhwanazi.  Mrs Downs, you have one minute, Your Ladyship.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to use my minute to focus a little bit more on the self-help scheme situation.  I have been working quite closely with a charity which actually helps people to build their own houses.  I want to appeal to the Minister that as the new Board is constituted, that it carefully looks at the people who get involved in these self-help schemes, because this one has been particularly successful.  

If they have access, however, to subsidies as well, we can address just the issues that the hon member Mr Mkhwanazi was talking about.  By using sweat equity, people can have bigger houses.  They can also acquire skills.  A part of this group's great success was that in using the self-help scheme, the communities that built houses, they built for themselves and for each other, were actually able to tender for a government project, building a community hall and a school.  They won the tender and actually brought jobs to a community that did not have houses previously, did not have jobs and through skilling and through carefully applied procedures, brought both roofs over their heads and jobs with which to pay for them.

I think that we need to really look very carefully at self-help schemes.  We need to really focus on those a lot more than they have been focused on.  The Board needs to open its mind up a little bit, because I know that there is maybe some entrenched interests from contractors who obviously have a financial interest in building houses, and we need to balance the two very carefully.  With that, I would like to say that we thoroughly support the Bill.  Well done, KwaZulu-Natal, for being the only ones to have such a piece of legislation.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  I would now call upon the Minister to please reply to the debate.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  At the outset I would like to thank all the hon members for their very constructive comments on this Bill and for the support of all the parties to this particular piece of legislation.  Lest my colleague, MEC Dan Mofekeng telephones me tomorrow, let me say and place on record, that Gauteng has already approved legislation on their Housing Bill, so we come second, but that is still very, very good.

Mr Speaker, I want to thank Mr Naicker, the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee, once again for the manner in which he steered the affairs of the Committee.  He spoke of peculiar circumstances and yes, I think every single member in their contribution, eluded to these peculiar circumstances which are really peculiar to KwaZulu-Natal.  

Firstly, the rural character of KwaZulu-Natal and secondly the topography, the coastal belt and the soil types we have, the need for environmental impact assessment studies along the coastal belt, all these are peculiar circumstances to KwaZulu-Natal.  The hon Miss Barrett also referred to this and referred to national norms and standards.

I have not had the opportunity, Mr Speaker, to liaise, or to interact with the Portfolio Committee since I returned from MINMEC on Monday.  At MINMEC we presented our case as KwaZulu-Natal.  Although it fell on deaf ears before, to other MEC's from other provinces, that we did have these peculiar circumstances in KwaZulu-Natal, they sent down officials to the Province, who saw for themselves, exactly what we experience in terms of terrain, etcetera.

They also saw for themselves how some local authorities are really very very difficult when it comes to the provision of infrastructure.  We have had certain local authorities that have insisted on tarred driveways, on tarred parking areas for motor cars in some of these suburbs that we have created.  In an area where a person cannot even afford a bicycle, some of these local authorities want tarred parking areas.  This, Mr Speaker, causes the cost of infrastructure to escalate sometimes to up to R12 000, R14 000, and it leaves very very little residual for the top structure.  Hence you find that in many, many areas you get 12 square metres, 14 square metre top structures, because that is the amount available, after one takes into consideration the total subsidy that is given to persons in different categories.

But notwithstanding that, the point the hon Mrs Downs made, and others have made about the self-help process, sweat equity, is the route that the Board, the Department and I, as a Ministry, are going to follow vigorously.  We have found that in many areas where the self-help process has been initiated, people tend to double the size of the dwellings that they build for themselves, compared to what a contractor can offer them.  So we will be encouraging very very vigorously this people's housing process which the hon Mr Bhamjee also referred to.

In terms of the standards, we have now decided that the cost of infrastructure should be pegged at R7 500 and the provision of VIP toilets, etcetera, are minimum requirements.  Gravel roads are a minimum requirement, but where the topography dictates that we should have a tarred road, obviously, I, as the MEC, in consultation with my Portfolio Committee and the Housing Board, do have the discretion to increase the amount that we can utilise for infrastructure.  But the whole idea is that we must leave as much as possible over for a top structure of at least 25, 30 square metres.  We will not, and we do not want to see in this Province again, 12, 14, 15 square metre houses.  That is out.  These homes must be socially acceptable and we will endeavour to ensure that we meet the required standards of 25 square metres plus, where it is a contractor driven development.

Mr Speaker, the hon Miss Barrett referred to fraud in the Department.  I am not here to report on what the Department has been doing and the activities of the Department.  I am here to promote a Bill and I will not refer to fraud, although I must say that all of us are very very concerned.  10 Officials working for the Department of Housing, have already been found guilty in courts of law for fraudulent practices within the Department of Housing and they have been given sentences, some up to three years in gaol.  I think that has sent quite a clear message to other officials in the Department and other role players, whether they are attorneys, whether they are developers, whether they are local authorities, that we will not tolerate the wastage of taxpayers money.

Mr Speaker, in reply to the hon Bhamjee, I am sorry that I cannot consult with him, he is out of the Chamber, but he spoke about -oh, is he there, sorry, the hon Mr Bhamjee.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  But he must take his seat.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  I take note of your criticism.  May I just add that the first draft of the Housing Bill was gazetted on 13 August.  Local authorities, particularly, have access to Government Gazettes and I am sure they have people within their offices that scrutinize these gazettes quite carefully.  It is quite a lame excuse for some of them to indicate that they were not aware of the existence of this Bill.  I take on board the comments you made and I think if there is another Bill that we have to table before this House, we will make sure that we send the drafts to local authorities so that they have no excuses.  The public hearings were also advertised widely in the main newspapers and that is another reason why I cannot see why they must criticise the process of consultation.

Challenges to the banks.  That is a very very important point.  In fact, at MINMEC level there has been a great deal of discussion about the role that the financial institutions have been playing in housing, particularly housing the low income sector.  It is of major concern that they are not coming to the party and it is for this reason that a team of people was sent to the United States a few months ago, to look at the legislation that they have in the United States.  There they force lending institutions to disclose their contribution to the housing sector, particularly to the poorest of the poor.  A Bill is going to be tabled before Parliament, which is the Fair Lending Practices Bill.  We discussed the draft on Monday.  The draft was approved by all the MEC's and hopefully, sometime next year, this will be tabled before Parliament.  What is pleasing, Mr Speaker, is that the financial institutions themselves, who have had sight of the draft are happy that this Bill be tabled before Parliament.  I think that is a very positive move.

The hon Mr Nel will look at Clause 4.  I am a bit disappointed that from the attendance registers that I received, Mr Nel was not present at any of the meetings when this Bill was discussed.  I am sure that his input would have been very very valuable.

AN HON MEMBER:  Mr Tony Leon is aware.  [LAUGHTER]

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  Insofar as the appointment of members to the Board, this will be done after a very transparent and open process.  The Portfolio Committee will be making recommendations and we take note of the point that people can be nominated from different sectors, but the Board members may not come from those sectors.  I do not think we are in a hurry to change the Board.  We have a Board, we now have legislation, the Board is performing well and we will have to examine and evaluate matters as we proceed.

Members of Parliament, municipalities and local councils have been excluded.  This is in keeping with national legislation.  There was a lot of debate nationally.  There was a lot of debate here.  When this particular clause was to be included in the Bill, my Department, my Director-General and myself sought legal opinion from senior counsel.  We were advised that if we included this particular clause, we would be in conflict with the Constitution, and not only in terms of norms and standards, but in terms of national policies.  We valued the advice that we got from highly respected senior counsel and we thought it prudent to also follow the route of the National in this regard, so that we do not delay the passage of this particular Bill.

The hon Mr Rajbansi, thank you very much.  Housing delivery is questionable and you may ask questions, but we need collective wisdom, we need the wisdom of all the members of the Portfolio Committee, the Housing Board and the Legislature, together with the Department, to try and sort out the problems that we have in the Department.

The hon Mr Mkhwanazi, thank you very much for your support for this Bill.  More land for people - we are promoting the question of agri-villages and there have been a few successful pilot projects where the land area is something like 2 000 square metres.  It allows people to build their houses, it allows people to keep cattle, it allows people to participate in agricultural activities as well.  In the semi rural areas and the rural areas, we will be encouraging this concept of agri-villages.

Thank you, Mrs Downs, for your contribution.  I know of the project that you mentioned and it is a very very laudable achievement by that particular organisation, from New Zealand it is.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, we want to move to a process where small builders, small contractors, small entrepreneurs, the SMME's that we referred to, get their fair share of work in the housing delivery process.  I do not believe that many of them have entered this market yet, for various reasons.  I have had discussions with my Director-General and I would like to discuss this with the Portfolio Committee, where we offered them training programmes, where we invite SMME's, train them in business management skills, and teach them how to fill in contract and tender documents so that they can become part of the delivery process.  There is no point in us just providing houses for the poorest of the poor and say: "Well, there is a roof above your head", we must also give them the opportunities to benefit economically from all these developments.  That is something that we are going to do.

Mr Speaker, thank you very much, and once again, I thank all the hon members of the House for their support.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  That concludes the debate on the Bill.  I will now put the Bill to the House.

KWAZULU-NATAL HOUSING BILL - PASSED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will therefore request the Secretary to read the short title of the Bill.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Housing Act 1998.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  That concludes 8.2 on the Order Paper.  We will then proceed with 8.3 on the Order Paper.

8.3	KWAZULU-NATAL REHABILITATION TRUST FUND BILL

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will request the Minister of Economic Affairs to introduce the Bill.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you, Mr Speaker, hon members of the KwaZulu Legislature.  It is with great please that I today table the KwaZulu-Natal Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund Bill for your consideration and approval.  The rehabilitation of businesses that were affected by political violence that engulfed our Province between 1984 to 1994 has been on the agenda of this House for some time.

In this Province, one cannot seriously talk of small business development without addressing the plight of those businesses which were destroyed during this unfortunate period in our history.  The development of what could have been a thriving small black business sector in this Province was hampered by various acts of violence ranging from arson attacks, burning down and looting of property to wanton murder of business people and their families.

Apart from the physical destruction of property, there were a number of other psychological and emotional hardships that were caused by the violence.  A lot of these business people were forced to abandon their areas of operation, leaving behind all their valuables and belongings.  Also, because of the massive displacement of people fleeing from the violence, a lot of businesses lost their markets.  A lot of these business people are now listed with the Credit Bureau with impossible debts.  Hon members, I can go on about the effects of the political violence on our economy, but I think you are all well acquainted with this.

The KwaZulu-Natal Government has taken this matter very seriously.  My Department, worked in close collaboration with other Government departments, other stakeholders, to address this problem.  The proposal for the establishment of a special rehabilitation fund has been a subject of discussion in a number of forums and meetings dealing with issues of SMME development in the Province.  We have had extensive consultations with various small business associations, including the KwaZulu-Natal Traders Forum, Inyanda, the KwaZulu-Natal Small Business Council and others.  I am happy that today we are finally tabling the Bill to set up the Fund.

Cabinet approved an allocation of R10 million towards the establishment of the Fund.  The Fund will operate as a credit indemnity scheme that will guarantee loans of up to R100 000.  On top of the allocation from the Provincial Government, Khula Enterprise Finance, the financial institution set up by the National Government, has committed itself to gearing up the Fund up to R40 million.  The Fund will operate under very strict criteria to ensure that the right beneficiaries are targeted.  While we want as many people as possible to benefit from this scheme, we have carefully worked out the application procedures and criteria to protect the scheme from abuse.  We know that there may be elements out there who expect to cash in on the Fund.  As we say in Zulu, [All eyes are intently focused on this money].

Hon members, I want to assure you that we will not allow this Fund, for which we have worked so hard, to be misused.

The Rehabilitation Trust Fund is designed to revitalise the SMME sector in this Province.  The Fund must not be seen as mere compensation or payment to those who suffered from violence only.  It must rather be seen as assistance from Government to demonstrate Government commitment to economic growth in this Province.  In order to qualify for support, applicants will not only have to demonstrate that their businesses were affected, but they will also have to come up with viable business plans.  To ensure sustainability of the new business ventures, a special capacity building element has been structured in the scheme.  The Department is presently working on a communication strategy for the Rehabilitation Fund to inform our public throughout the Province about the Fund.

The Portfolio Committee on Economic Affairs and Tourism also conducted a series of hearings recently where many submissions were received.  Among the new additions to the original proposal on the Fund is the idea of including a trade credit facility.  Since this idea was introduced so late, the Bill does not deal with the details regarding the operational and administrative issues relating to this facility.  We are keen to have this Bill passed before Christmas.  Everybody is waiting patiently for the launch of the Fund.  We, therefore, feel that some of the outstanding matters, like the administrative procedures for the trade facility could be adequately dealt with in the Regulations.

I wish to thank the KwaZulu-Natal Cabinet, members of the KZN Legislature, members of the Economic Affairs and Tourism Portfolio Committee, members of the KwaZulu-Natal Rehabilitation Task Team, the small business community, for the interest and assistance during this process.  A special word of gratitude goes to Khula Enterprise for gearing up the fund and assisting us with some aspects thereof.

Mr Speaker, hon members, it is now my pleasure to request you to approve the Bill.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I call upon the hon Mr Hamilton to address the House for six minutes.  Mr Hamilton?

MR A J HAMILTON:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, the tabling of the KwaZulu-Natal Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund Act of 1998, in Parliament today, is a culmination of three years of effort.  It stems from a proposal that the KwaZulu Government acted on, with the object of helping innocent people whose businesses had either been destroyed during the violence preceding, (but including 1994), or so affected by depopulation of their trade catchment areas as to have effectively destroyed them.  This caused untold hardship to their owners and their families, through loss of their means of livelihood and worse still, the substantial majority of these cases led to default judgments against these people, making it now impossible for them to rehabilitate themselves while such judgments remain in force.

This then, Mr Speaker, is the background against which this Bill is before us today.  We estimate that there could be up to 900 businesses that can be helped.  

However, Mr Speaker, the noble objects of this Bill will only be achieved if great care is taken in the preparation and drafting of the regulations which complement the Bill.  Mr Speaker, I cannot emphasise this point strongly enough.  Success will only be achieved through the compilation of an excellent set of regulations.  I refer here to Clause 21, setting out the guidelines for regulations, and would hope that expert advice will be sought in drafting the regulations as well as, of course, consultation with the Portfolio Committee.

Mr Speaker, I also want to caution this House on what could be a misconception, and I fear is a misconception, by many affected people, that the passing of this Act will result in cash hand-outs.  This is not the case and never can be, for it is a "guarantee" or "collateral" function only, that is available to affected owners who qualify in terms of the criteria.

In fact, Mr Speaker, the R15 million Khula input is not a cash amount which will be paid into the Fund, their input is in the form of guarantees issued to banking or financial houses in respect of loans which those institutions may have granted to individuals.

The Portfolio Committee listened carefully to the input at public hearings that were held, and was determined to see the inclusion of clauses to allow the Fund to offer trade credit facilities, for we believe it is in this aspect that will allow the most effective form of assistance to be offered.  It will minimize interest payments, which would otherwise be extremely heavy on people who are assisted and it is probably by far the simplest way to operate.

The Committee was strongly of the opinion that the Fund and the Board should have a limited life of five years that can only be extended by a resolution of this House.  By the inclusion of Clause 19(4)(a) we have ensured that the Board will get off to a good running start.  That clause simply requires that the Board reports to this House on its progress, within six months of its formation and promulgation.

Also, Mr Speaker, with the Portfolio's inclusion in the Bill for the provision of the KFC to be placed on the Board, we feel that the enormous amount of expertise, which is within the KFC, will be put to good use and will help to ensure the smooth and effective operation of the Fund.

As Chairman of the Portfolio Committee, Mr Speaker, I would like to thank members of the Department, members of my Portfolio Committee, for the happy and co-operative spirit that pertained right through the proceedings.  I would especially like to single out the Legal Department, in the shape of Narisha Naidoo, who, as usual, has done very well.  I am very proud to be associated with this Bill.  That does not mean that any of us underestimate the difficulties that will be encountered in seeing that the Bill is fairly and effectively applied.  It is a start and perhaps it is really a very important healing process for the people in this Province.  I have great pleasure in supporting the Bill.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Hamilton.  That leads us to the hon member, Mr Mabuyakhulu, who has five minutes.

MR M MABUYAKHULU:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I think the Bill that we are dealing with today reminds us that even five years after we actually won our democracy in this country, we still have to deal with the scars of the past, the scars that were actually created by ~Apartheid~ in particular.  We therefore have to regard this Bill as a special measure, a measure that is actually aimed at healing that dreadful past.  An endeavour to try to build a better tomorrow, and we cannot do it without dealing with that past.

When we met with the delegation led by Mr Oscar Dhlomo in June, at a sub-committee of the Portfolio Committee, we clearly indicated that to us, the question of dealing with a measure that would address the plight of those business people who were victims of violence, political violence in this Province, was an important one.  One that required serious attention.  For that matter, one must say therefore that the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism has indeed listened to those voices of business people, men and women, who today are out of business, because of that dreadful past.

Therefore, the Bill before us, Mr Speaker, serves two purposes.  The first purpose serves to remind us that we should have a clean break from the past and that we should never revert to a situation where the businesses of people will be put into danger just because there is political competition.

The second thing, Mr Speaker, it serves to tell us is that we are now beginning, in a meaningful manner, to heal those wounds which were created by our past.  We therefore have taken a gigantic step in that healing process.

I would therefore, Mr Speaker, urge businessmen and women, who will benefit by this Bill, to clearly understand that Government takes their plight to heart.  I say so, Mr Speaker, because in the public hearings, at least the one where I was present, a lot was said about Government not being considerate towards the plight of the business people.  This was said in the context that with the plight of the farmers, Government is quick to respond, but with the plight of the business people, the same is not happening.

I also want to say that as far as we are concerned, at least on this side of the House, we feel that this measure will not only contribute towards the reconstruction and redevelopment of economic activity in this Province, but it will indeed mean that we once again will provide an opportunity to those who were previously disadvantaged and are still disadvantaged today.  Therefore their lot is going to be improved by this Bill.

Finally, I hope that when this Bill comes into effect, and when the period of five years comes to an end, what we wanted to achieve with this Bill, we would have achieved.  But this Bill is not the only measure that will address all the problems of the past.  It should be one of the measures to precisely do that.  I therefore move the adoption of the Bill.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now request the hon Mr Edwards, who has four minutes.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  There is no doubt that there is a great need for urgent and innovative action to provide assistance to owners of businesses.  Especially small businesses that cater in rural and formal township areas, those whose business was ruined financially, rendered useless and substantially damaged as a result of the political violence that was prevalent in KwaZulu-Natal in the last decade or more.  It is very sad that this need has been created due to political intolerance.  A total breakdown of law and order and an almost total disregard for life and property, that became endemic in South Africa.

It is a fact that South Africa is now regarded as the most murderous country in the world by the World Health Organisation.  The average murder rate in South Africa is between 46 and 54 murders per 100 000 population per year, against 5.5 in the world average.  In this dreadfully lawless atmosphere, business, buildings and property have been subjected to wanton destruction.  A sorry state of affairs indeed.  Many people fled the areas they lived in, abandoned their homes and businesses, which were looted, or razed to the ground.  The hon Minister has referred to this.  These areas became no-go areas for many law-abiding people and certain opposing political factions.  Perhaps it was not the old ~Apartheid~ factions.

With an election coming, we have seen the political intolerance worsening in no-go areas again, in recent weeks.  The New National Party members have sought refuge in other areas away from their homes.  This is sad.  In the four years since 1994, over 500 000 jobs have been lost in South Africa, many because of the war of attrition.  Now opportunities are sought to rehabilitate these businesses and I am very pleased with that, and pleased with what this Bill is creating.

Many methods have been looked at to assist our people who have been deprived of their livelihood and hard won assets.  The KwaZulu Finance Investment Corporation has since 1979 displayed an unwavering commitment to the broad socio-economic development of the people of our Province.  This commitment extended to being financiers, specialising in business loans and it is one of the few institutions active in KwaZulu-Natal's SMME sector.

It is important to note that in the combined sectors of small, medium and micro enterprise, industry, commerce, tourism and agriculture, in spite of national job setting, the KFC, in 1997/98, created some 9 700 employment opportunities.  The Ithala Savings network and Ithala Bank has played an important role in facilitating business opportunities.  Indeed, new legislation to further empower the Ithala Development Corporation is in the pipeline.

However, in respect of the businesses destroyed, or substantially damaged, the financing is more than a high risk business.  Many applications are now being turned down.  The establishment of the Trust Fund in terms of this Bill is some R10 million, together with the  financial muscle and the gearing facility provided through Khula Enterprise Finance and KwaZulu Finance, will provide a much needed avenue to provide financial backing and credit indemnity, not hand-outs of money, to raise finance to rehabilitate businesses or start new businesses.

I trust, Mr Speaker, that the Board to be appointed in terms of the Bill will be weary of the high risk because of violence in no-go areas, to add to the many corrupt practices that the Minister mentioned, is still very much in existence in our Province.  The intentions are good, but we just hope that the political will is there to allow this scheme to succeed.  With that, the National Party supports the Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Edwards.  I now call upon Mr Nel, who has two minutes.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, small business development and the nurturing of the initiative and entrepreneurship of small businessmen is of course vital to the development in this Province.  It is vital for economic growth, it is vital for capacity building in disadvantaged communities and it is also vital for a better spread of services to under-provided communities.  It is also long overdue that the businesses devastated in the crossfire of the terrible violence that afflicted this Province, in the last decade-and-a-half, and have since been battling to survive, some of them having been forced to close down, that those businesses are now given a helping hand.  The Democratic Party would wholeheartedly welcome the advent of this legislation and the establishment of an independent Board to oversee that process.

There is a great deal of work that remains to be done, and with respect, I think the Department has a lot of homework to do before we can actually go over to implementation.  I refer specifically to the process that still lies ahead in drafting regulations to implement this legislation, because even now there is a great deal of confusion about the instruments that will be available.  There was reference by the hon Minister to the suggestion of a trade credit facility.  Now we have championed together with submissions made by the public, this very issue, because we see it as one vehicle that will be able to circumvent the problems that go along with the making available of a lump sum of cash, which I do not think is a suitable vehicle to address the needs of these people.

There is also confusion as to the ability to gear up this Fund.  How it will be geared up without exposing the Government to further risks.  

The last point I want to make is the tendency that has been evident to circumvent our Provincial Development Body, the KFC, which is soon to be replaced by the Ithala Development Corporation.  They have capacity, they have the infrastructure in the Province and my party doubts the ability of Khula and its other arm, Ntsika to actually provide the practical assistance in terms of management advice and financial advice to these emerging businesses.  We must either have a Provincial Economic Development Corporation, or we must not.  If we have one, and we indeed would support that notion, then we must channel the business through it as well, particularly if it already has infrastructure in place.

I end by saying there is a great deal of work to be done.  There are legalities to be sorted out in particular about security, and also the preferential claims, previously existing claims and also how to secure the interests of the Board when it has advanced credit or indemnities as it is envisaged in this Bill.  I thank you, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  Mr Rajbansi, you have one minute.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, we have taken this matter through the Housing Portfolio Committee and we adopted a resolution.  Some members of the Housing Portfolio Committee addressed the Land Affairs Committee over the Durban Municipality, last year on this matter.

I want to make an appeal to the hon Minister.  This Rehabilitation Trust is only a small instalment by way of assistance to these people who were affected by political violence.  I suggest that we go to the National Minister to amend the provision of the restitution legislation to cater for people who fall into this category.  
I also want to make an appeal that we join in a partnership with local government.  For example, in Durban, you have an Economic Development Committee and you have a Department of Informal Trade.  Without the allocation of small sites, particularly in the urban areas, any financial assistance is meaningless.

Mr Speaker, we have a policy that all State financed land on the boundary of Inanda, in Umlazi, in KwaMashu, is State financed land and the prices are being determined by our Provincial Minister.  This land should be given away at more or less nominal prices where these people can get the security of tenure.  Any cash allocation without premises is meaningless.  I want to suggest to our hon Minister to make these necessary arrangements as the National Minister has made an arrangement with Municipalities to assist those who qualify in terms of current restitution legislation.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Mrs Downs, you have one minute.  I will therefore, in the absence of Mrs Downs, go to Mr Mkhwanazi, who also has one minute.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Hon Mr Cele wishes me to disappear.  I have not disappeared, my friend.  [LAUGHTER]  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, the PAC, by its nature, has no choice, but to applaud the Minister, his Department, the Government and the Cabinet of KwaZulu-Natal for adopting this kind of Bill.  We therefore fully support the Bill.

First of all, we want to draw the attention of this hon House to the fact of who are the people that are involved here?  These are the people who started from nothing.  Some people started by selling tomatoes and onions.  Other people started by selling [intestines] on their bicycles.  They developed and that was how they managed to achieve.  They were driving cars and trucks when this scourge of political violence came in and destroyed them.  We therefore support the Bill.

Before I sit down, Mr Speaker, there are two questions I would like to ask the Minister.  Please, Mr Minister, do realise that English is not my first language. [I do not understand quite well here in section 4] where, it says financial indemnity, bla, bla.  What about the people who owe money to the banks and have now been blacklisted.  Is this Fund or this Bill going to remove that [remove that cloud] because these people perhaps could get new credit.  What about what they owed and TRANSLATION:  What about what they owed and they have been barred from receiving their debts.  Even if they can be lent money again I hear that they will be lent money anew.  

Secondly what I want to ask Mr Speaker the...  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: [Unfortunately your time is up].

MR J D MKHWANAZI: Thank you.  [Oh well, I will question the Minister outside.  Thank you].

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yebo, Ndonga.  I now call upon Mrs Cronje who has four minutes.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, on the surface it may appear that this Bill deals with dry financial matters such as risk, indemnity and all those words that my hon colleague, Mr Mkhwanazi, is referring to.  But anyone who attended the public hearings and anyone who has some understanding of the past that we come from, will know that behind this Bill lies the story of people's lives and the story of their suffering.  I think therefore, the Department and the hon Minister of Economic Affairs need to be congratulated on having put this Bill before us.

It was also their realisation that you are dealing with real people who have suffered and that we are trying to alleviate their plight, that perhaps caused the Portfolio Committee to work in a manner that was very constructive.  There was very little difference of opinion and I suppose one cannot congratulate yourself, but the Committee did well and also thank you to the Chairperson.

What struck us when we were at the hearings, initially the Bill only intended to deal with risk indemnity in respect of bank loans.  Then it comes to the point raised by the hon Mr Mkhwanazi - what the people were saying to us: "Look, some of us already owe R30 000, R40 000, R50 000.  We are paying 25% interest on those old debts, and really, to say to us, you can now go and borrow more money and pay another 25% interest on that money, in a sense, it is not really helping us".  What they were saying to us, and they were really pleading with us, is: "Please, also give us the opportunity to get trade credit facilities".  In other words, there would be some indemnity for them when they wanted to go and buy stock to stock up their shops.

A problem that they brought to our attention is, because of all these debts, they have judgment debts against them.  All their stuff has been attached.  Like one old gentleman said: "I have lost everything", and since he said it publicly, I do not think he would mind me repeating this, he said: "I have lost everything.  Even my wife has left me because of my problems".  So people, really, it touched your heart and that is why the object of the Bill has been extended also to provide for trade credit facilities, an indemnity so that they can now go and buy stock.

We have also put into the Bill a proviso that that stock cannot be attached by the - what do you call that nasty man that comes from the Court? - the Messenger of the Court, because if you actually allowed that stock to be attached, you would be back to square one.

Another issue that was raised at the hearings was that people do not want to be thrown to the dogs and put into the same situation where they actually go into battle.  We have also built into the Act the provision for training and support, continued support, because it is no good just training people once-off and then you leave them.  There is that continued support.  Within the limited scope of this Bill, we have actually done the very best we can.

There are also - and I hope time allows me -  just to make a few remarks on the constitution of the Board ...

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I am also glad to advise the hon member that she has 30 seconds.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  We also provided that there will be three people representing the business bodies and that at least two of them must come from small business, because we felt that there was a very real need for that.

One other issue, Mr Speaker, that you will allow me to mention, we also listened to the people about the representation of women.  Therefore, we are very proud to announce, especially some of us, that in this Bill there is now also a provision that the Board must reflect broadly the gender composition of the Province.  That is a great advancement and I hope will be comfort to the women who came to us and said, "We too have suffered, we too are trying to run businesses".

Many of the members have spoken about the regulations and the need for giving very careful attention to those.  For instance, criteria for assisting businesses, what criteria are we going to use?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we agree that the hon member's time is up?

MR C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  At least I put in the gender bit.  Thank you, Mr Speaker, thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I wish to then call upon the hon member, Mr John Aulsebrook.  Mr Aulsebrook, you have six minutes, sir.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, hon members of the House.  The KZN Rehabilitation Trust Fund Bill which is before us today is certainly long overdue in that it deals with the rehabilitation of businesses destroyed over a period between January 1984 and December 1994.  It has taken us five years to react to this need.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  I must compliment the Premier for initiating this process and the Minister of Economic Affairs for seeing to it that it has arrived at this stage and that it is before the House in the form of a Bill.  Mr Speaker, if we were serious about SMME's, we should have started with this particular issue, the rehabilitation and re-establishment of these businesses that were destroyed in violence, and in my book it was an obvious starting point.  We have spent a lot of time and money on SMME's with few results.  This would have been the most positive place to have started.

These businesses represent a large portion of our small formal business, particularly in the disadvantaged communities in this Province and they contribute to our economy as a whole.  In saying that, one must also concede that economic development such as this, has been impeded in the earlier years of our term of office by political violence.  Thank goodness, hopefully, that is a thing of the past.

I must also add, hopefully, that the political violence that we experienced will not be reignited with the forthcoming elections.  Most of us in this House are more politically mature than what we were in 1994.  In those four-and-a-half years, a lot of the people in this House have now developed into leaders, responsible leaders.  I appeal to members of this House and their political parties, to ensure that they do everything to make these coming elections peaceful.  Let this Bill serve as a reminder to all of us of our violent and destructive pasts that we have experienced in this Province.

Turning to the Bill itself, and I know Mr Hamilton referred to the public hearings and people regarding it as cash hand-outs. I myself was extremely perturbed to hear from so many people, at those hearings, that that is precisely what they were expecting, massive grants from us as Government.  One may argue that by providing sureties and indemnities to financial institutions and trade suppliers on behalf of these affected businesses, is tantamount to the same thing, but this Bill goes a lot further.  This Bill requires the Board not only to assess losses incurred by businesses, but also the viability of those businesses, and most importantly, training of those businesses to be assisted will be essential and part of an integral plan.

This Fund is not a lifeline to those businesses that are trading in insolvency through bad business practices.  That would merely perpetuate that practice.

My other concern is that the Bill places too great an administrative burden on the Department of Economic Affairs, particularly in the issuing and administration of trade credit.  This issue needs to be gone into carefully.  This Bill certainly does not deal with this aspect in any detail, but rather is left to regulations.  I appeal to those drafting the regulations to tread cautiously when dealing with the trade credit issue.  It is an important part of this Bill and we would like to see it as a beneficial tool to those businesses, but let us not create a problem for the Department of Economic Affairs.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, we on this side of the House, support this Bill and hope it is implemented without delay.  Certainly I look forward to seeing these small businesses thrive in the future.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Aulsebrook.  After this, I would like to request the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Economic Affairs to mention the minor or typographical mistakes that members need to be aware of and for the purposes of the record, before we allow the Minister to wind up the debate.  Mr Hamilton, please?

MR A J HAMILTON:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, there are two small typographical errors in the Bill, which occur on page 10, Clause 9(e), and those members that wish to refer to the Bill, I will give them a second with your permission, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  All right.

MR A J HAMILTON:  It is the end of Clause 9(e), and it says, the last few words: "In Section 5" should actually read: "In Section 6".  Also on page 16, Clause 19(1)(f), which reads: "Subject to Section 12" should read: "Subject to Section 14".  Those are the only errors in the Bill.  Thank you for your indulgence, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Hamilton.  I now call upon the Minister to close the debate.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  I realise that we have travelled a long distance since January.  It is now December.  Members of your House, the hon members do feel the distance and therefore I am not going to keep you long.  [LAUGHTER]

Mr Speaker, I have listened to the comments which were very very constructive indeed as were the comments that we received as the Bill was being discussed during the public hearings.  I am very pleased that today we have now reached this point with this Bill. This was one of the first difficult problems I came across in 1994, shortly after becoming the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism.  Since then, I have been trying to deal with the matter.  Finally, Government has dealt with it and after accepting what we thought was important, had to put it into some law.

Many people felt it has taken too long, but that is how governments operate.  It has a framework within which funds are handled.  That is why I appreciate comments that have sought to indicate the necessity of looking after these funds very jealously, so that they do help to achieve the purpose for which they have been given out.  I will not go into the detail of these comments, because I believe in keeping with the spirit of our travelling the distance over the year and that indeed has brought agreement on the Bill, it would not be necessary to go into some details.

However, there are a few important points which I wish to mention.  It is important to say something about the involvement of Khula Enterprise, particularly in the light of the comments the hon member, Mr Nel, made.  The contribution of Khula Finance to the scheme, must be acknowledged and recognised.  It is not correct for us to pass comments that suggest we are not appreciative of this valuable contribution.  Khula Finance has added a lot of value to the original proposal by offering to gear up the Fund by R15 million.  This will enable the Fund to assist more people than it would have without the involvement of Khula.  Therefore we should look at Khula from a different angle.

It is also important to comment here about the manner in which my colleague, the hon member, tried to interpose the involvement of Khula to the involvement of the KFC.  It is important to note that in fact Khula is also funding the KFC to the tune of R50 million, therefore, as a financial institution, linked to other financial institutions, is an important vehicle for us to utilise.  Without utilising Khula we would have a very small Fund that might be very difficult to handle.  I thought it was important to make that point.

It is also important to note, because it has been mentioned at the public hearings, as well as during the discussions in the Portfolio Committee, the involvement of the KFC in the Board.  Due to its own activities in the Province, we needed to look at its involvement because some people argued that there might be a clash of interests.  Whether that is true or not, we need to look into the regulations and how they participate.  In particular and whilst that argument is valid, we cannot also say that the experience of the KFC in the Province cannot be utilised.  So it is a question of how we handle it, in such a way that it is useful for all of us.

I thought it was important to make those points.  It is important for this Legislature to take these steps today, in order to actually empower the poorest of the poor and particularly black businesses.  We are doing something important in relation to the businesses that were small, that the hon Nkwali described, some of them as having started [selling intestines on their bicycle].  But when the violence came, it devastated them and they had absolutely no hope.  Some of the people who had thriving businesses were suddenly listed as bad business people, who were useless, and yet, it was not due to their making.  Some of them did not even take part in the violence.  They were caught in the crossfire and they suffered a great deal.

The decision that this Legislature has taken today, goes a long way.  Again, to underline, what the hon Mr Aulsebrook was saying, is our commitment to stability and peace in this Province.  We  do not want people, who feel that: "Today I am what I am because of these politicians who were fighting".  He might not even have been a member of any organisation and therefore remaining with a sore heart.  I think it is very important.

I hope we could politically influence businesses other than the businesses who were not involved in the political parties, but that those who were involved in the political parties, if we could influence them, that with these initiatives, they could actually start working together, because I believe if businesses, who are politically orientated from different angles, they work together on business, they have got something in common.  It cements more working together, and more unity.

I therefore appreciate and thank this House for supporting this Bill.  I want to thank the Portfolio Committee in particular, who spent a lot of time discussing this Bill very meticulously, to ensure that when it becomes a Bill, it will help us handle this Fund, it will indeed do it in a balanced manner and advance those people and begin to deal with the past in the manner in which we have agreed to.

I would like to thank the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee and his colleagues for the very special effort they put into this Bill.  I would also like to thank my colleagues in the Cabinet and the entire membership of this House.  This is very important legislation we are passing in this Province today.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  That concludes the debate on this Bill.  I now put the Bill to the House.

KWAZULU-NATAL REHABILITATION TRUST FUND BILL - PASSED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will request the Secretary to read the short title of the Bill.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Rehabilitation Trust Fund Act 1998.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  That completes 8.3 on the Order Paper.  I will proceed with 8.4 on the Order Paper.

8.4	BUDGET REVIEW REPORT

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  May I call upon the hon Chief Whip to introduce the subject.  In the absence of the Chief Whip, can I call on the Deputy Chief Whip, please.  May I call upon Mrs Cronje to address.

AN HON MEMBER:  Mr Speaker, the Chief Whip, never said anything to me.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Chief Whip.  I actually would have loved to have had the power to discipline the Chief Whip.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I would have loved to discipline the Chief Whip for disappearing at this crucial moment.  The only thing is that I do not have the necessary tools.  Can I therefore, Mr Chief Whip, ask for your introduction, on 8.4, Budget Review Report.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I am sorry, I was busy passing the time of day with the members outside and I am sure my caucus will find a way to discipline me.  Mr Caucus, in terms of Item 8.4, I have pleasure in supporting it on behalf of the IFP caucus.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Chief Whip.  I will then call upon Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I will not call you Mr Caucus, but the ANC has pleasure in supporting this report which was tabled previously and that is what I wanted to point out to you, but we are supporting it from the ANC's side.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Cronje.  May I call upon Mr Edwards, or somebody from the National Party?  Mr Haygarth?

MR G HAYGARTH:  Mr Speaker, the National Party supports this report.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Haygarth.  I am not aware of the presence of any member from the Democratic Party.  I will therefore call upon the Minority Front?

MR A RAJBANSI:  The Minority Front supports the report.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, and the PAC?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  The PAC supports the report.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The report is put to the House.

BUDGET REVIEW REPORT - AGREED TO

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I wish to continue with 8.5 on the Order Paper.

8.5	RESOLUTIONS OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS STANDING COMMITTEE

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Chief Whip?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, as with the previous report, I have pleasure in supporting it on behalf of the IFP.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Chief Whip.  May I call upon Mrs Cronje?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the ANC supports the report as tabled.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, the New National Party ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I request the National Party as recognised by this House, Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  The National Party, Mr Speaker, would like to support the resolutions of the Public Accounts Standing Committee.  Mr Speaker, we would like to note that the hon Mr Haygarth today, put forward a motion to request that in future we allow some time to debate the reports of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.  I think it is necessary.  There are vast funds at stake which are under our eyes, which we have to report on as a Parliament and we need some debate on it.  I believe it is necessary.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Haygarth.  Just to respond on behalf of the Speaker.  I am sure the Speaker is fully aware of the need for this kind of debate.  I also think that hon members are aware that this sitting was very tight for the Speaker and he had to make decisions based on the very tight time frames.  I think you can see already that there is a lot of fidgeting and that is an indication of how tight the time was.  The Speaker has considered the matter and I am sure that he is looking into it very seriously.

I will therefore call upon Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  The growing Minority Front supports the Bill. I will not say "new", but watch us from January.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  A point of order, the hon Mr John Aulsebrook, hurled an insult at me to say that the grass is growing under my feet.  He is flat-footed and he is about to be sidelined.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, can we just accept that the Minority Front supports the report.  Thank you.  The PAC?  

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  The PAC supports the report.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Mkhwanazi.  I now, unfortunately, have to revert back to the Democratic Party.

MR W U NEL:  That is not a misfortune, Mr Speaker, but we are very happy to support the report as well.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, only that it took a few seconds away from my anticipated time.  I now put the report to the House.

RESOLUTIONS OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS STANDING COMMITTEE - AGREED TO

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  That now concludes the business of the House for today in terms of the Order Paper.  I just want to make one announcement.  Somebody appears to have lost their keys for an Isuzu.  The persons who has lost his keys must go to the security, describe their car and indicate where the car is located, just to ensure that nobody claims the Isuzu illegally.

Other than that, I wish to allow the Premier and on this occasion - I think the Chief Whip would like to say something.  Can I allow Mr Minister, the Chief Whip and then I will come back to the Minister and the Premier.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, earlier on in the day the hon Chief Whip of the ANC moved a motion, wishing the other parties in this House all the best for Christmas and the New Year. I do not have the opportunity of moving a motion, but by a narrow vote, Mr Speaker, our Party also decided to wish the ANC all the best for a happy New Year and a happy Christmas and the same to the other parties in the House, the National Party, the Democratic Party, the ACDP, MF and PAC.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Chief Whip.  I will then give the Minister for Transport and opportunity.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Just to heal the wounds of the National Party for being beaten in the by-election.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  The Road Traffic Inspectorate of the Department of Transport is celebrating 60 years of very excellent service to this Province.  Indeed it is the best law enforcement in the country and we invite all the members to follow the Premier to the room next-door, where we will be celebrating.  There will be drinks, but there will also be breathalysers so that members can know.  [LAUGHTER]  1938, I am told, it is only  [It is only uMntwana waKwaZiphethe who had a drivers licence at that time].  [LAUGHTER]  So, do come to the party.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I will then request the Premier to make a few announcements.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would also like to join my Chief Whip in wishing all our members, all the parties represented in our Parliament, a very merry, safe and happy Christmas and a prosperous New Year.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE PREMIER:  As we gear ourselves for the most important democratic exercise, which is holding regular elections and allowing the citizens to choose the government of their choice, let us remember the progress that we have made in establishing and consolidating peace in this Province.  Let there be political tolerance.  Let there be no no-go areas and let there be some clean politicking, clean politicking that will be in keeping with the traditions that have been established in this Parliament.

Today, Mr Speaker, we passed in this hon House two very significant pieces of legislation.  Legislation that addresses very fundamental and very real needs of our people, namely the Housing Bill and the Rehabilitation Trust Fund Bill.  I congratulate the two Ministers on this achievement and to me, it marks the seriousness with which this House takes and considers the welfare of all our people.

I would like to urge our members, our colleagues and comrades, to ensure that in the three days that are given for voter registration in the Province, we exercise our leadership and ensure that our people go out in their numbers to register as voters.

I would like, of course, to thank the leader of the African National Congress, as well as the leaders of all political parties in this House, for the spirit of co-operation, dedication and friendship that we have experienced during this parliamentary session.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  That brings us to the end of todays business.  I would also love to say that on behalf of the Speaker, the management of the Legislature, under the leadership of the Secretary and the Deputy Secretary, and on behalf of the whole staff of the Legislature, we also wish you, all the members well at Christmas time as well as in the New Year.  We hope to meet again in the New Year in a similar number as we close today.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 17:49 SINE DIE
  


	  
  



	QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

	JULY - DECEMBER 1998

NOTE:	FOR GREATER CLARITY, QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ARE PUBLISHED IN NUMERICAL ORDER.  ANSWERS GIVEN AND DISCUSSIONS THAT TOOK PLACE IN CONNECTION WITH QUESTIONS IN PARLIAMENT, HAVE BEEN PLACED IN CONTEXT WITH THE RELEVANT QUESTIONS.

WRITTEN REPLY TO QUESTION NO 74 (SEE VOLUME 7 1998 PAGE 215)

QUESTION NO 74

MRS C E GALEA:  Asks the Minister of Education:

What are the hon Minister's views on the Province being demarcated into controllable zones (possibly four instead of eight)?

Due to the financial constraints that the Education Department is undergoing, have full and frank considerations been given to limiting the number of regions so as to curtail burgeoning bureaucracy?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

It is considered that the demarcation of the Province has already been done into "controllable zones".  If the eight regions were reduced to four, then the sheer size of the regions would make them less controllable.

At the time of the formation of the new Department, a national advisory committee recommended that regions should not exceed 300 000 learners, as experience has shown that regions larger than this could reveal a lack of control.  Many of our regions have more than 300 000 learners.  With eight regions, services are brought closer to communities, particularly those which have been disadvantaged, and this devolution was seen to be important for the transformation of our society.

The KwaZulu-Natal Department of Education and Culture spends less per learner on administration staff than any other department in the country.  The Department does not have a "burgeoning bureaucracy".  Investigations have been undertaken on the feasibility and cost of reducing the number of regions, and the most appropriate scenario seems to be that certain functions may be restricted to particular regions, but that eight regions will continue to function.

QUESTION NO 87

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Minister of Transport:

With respect to the conversion of driver's licences to the new card type licence:

1.	How many offices in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal are equipped and at present handling applications for card licences and which are these offices?

2.	How many applications have been processed at each of the above offices since inception of the programme and for each of these offices, the date when they first began processing applications?

3.	What the Minister considers to be the maximum acceptable waiting period for applicants presenting themselves at these offices from the time of their first arrival to the departure?

4.	Which of the issuing stations are unable to cope with the volume of applicants within an acceptable waiting time?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):

1. & 2.	The attached list (Annexure A) which indicates all authorities which are able to do the conversions as well as the number of conversions that have been processed up to the 8 July 1998.  All the centres began processing applications from 1 March 1998.

3.	The Department strives to serve the public within 20 minutes on a time demand basis.

4.	All offices can cope if the volume of public was to remain constant and not become concentrated during the last 7 days of each four monthly period specified for conversion.

	Attached also is a copy of release (Annexure B) that depicts the low response to offices being open over a mid-month Saturday, namely 11 July 1998 where 700 conversions could have been dealt with, however, with public response, only 322 conversions were processed.
















	SEE ANNEXURE "A" ON PAGES 244 & 245





















ANNEXURE "B"

	SUBMISSION

CHIEF DIRECTOR			
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT		:	MR T MANYATHI

DEPUTY DIRECTOR GENERAL
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT		:	MS J GRAY

RE:	CONVERSIONS STATS	

The following RTI Stations were open on Saturday 11 July 1998 for conversions; figures are as follows:

	STATION
	NO. CONVERSIONS
	COULD DO
RTI: MKONDENI
61
200 +
RTI: PINETOWN
88
230 +
RTI: ROSSBURGH
175
250 +
RTI: EMPANGENI
NOT OPEN
OPEN ON 25/07/1998
RTI: NEWCASTLE
NOT OPEN
OPEN ON 25/07/1998

All above Stations will be open on Saturday 25 July 1998 for conversions only - really last chance for June birthdays.  Suitable media adverts have been placed.

July people will have until 30 November 1998.

Submitted for your information


J M SCHNELL
DIRECTOR : ROAD TRAFFIC INSPECTORATE



QUESTION NO 88

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Minister of Finance:

In respect of the R80 million set aside for KwaZulu-Natal Education Programme for Peace previously referred to:

1.	Whether this money has been assigned to the KZN Provincial Budget and, if so:

	(a)	Under which vote
	(b)	For what purpose is it to be used
	(c)	Whether any arrangements have been made regarding the distribution/allocation of this money in the Province.

2.	If not, can the Minister give an indication as to how it is anticipated that this money will be allocated?

3.	Whether the Minister will make a statement on this matter?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):

1.

2.	According to the Department of State Expenditure, this amount is appropriated as a conditional grant in the Department of Education at a central level.  The National Department of Education is currently involved in discussions with DSE in order to make arrangements regarding the distribution/allocation of this money to the Province.

3.	On the information available as tabled in 1 & 2 above, it is not possible to make a statement.

QUESTION NO 89

MR R M BURROWS:  Asks the Premier:

In respect of the R80 million set aside for KwaZulu-Natal Education Programme for Peace:

1.	Whether this money has been allocated to the KZN Provincial Budget, and if so,

	(a)	To which projects;
	(b)	On what date/s;
	(c)	If not, why not?

2.	Whether a management consultancy has been contracted to handle the allocation of the R80 million.  If so:

	(i)	Which consultancy;
	(ii)	When was it contracted;
	(iii)	What work has it done, and at what cost to date?

3.	Whether any applications have been made to this fund, if so

	(a)	by whom;
	(b)	on what dates;
	(c)	what decisions, if any, have been reached regarding the recipients of the fund monies?

4.	Whether the Minister or Department of Education have been consulted;

	(a)	if so, when and what was their response;
	(b)	if not, why not.

5.	Whether he will make a statement on this matter?

THE PREMIER:

1.	This money has not been allocated to the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Budget.  As far as I am aware, it will not be allocated since it has been categorised as a conditional grant.  In that case, it will be allocated through a national department.


QUESTION NO 90

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Minister of Finance:

Whether the Province has recently contracted for a major upgrading or replacement of computer systems at provincial departments at Pietermaritzburg, ~Ulundi~ and/or Durban?  If so:

1.	Which departments are included in the upgrade?

2.	What the cost of the upgrade/replacement is for each department.

3.	How much of this cost is attributed to hardware and software respectively?

4.	Whether existing computer capacity was inadequate at these centres?

5.	Whether a proper assessment of the computing requirements was done before entering into the contracts and if so, by whom?   and;

Whether the Minister will make a statement on this issue?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):

Part 1

No, therefore 1 to 5 fall away.

Part 2

The Province is faced with making critical areas in the Province's IT network "Millennium Bug" compliant, but no major contracts to this end have been entered into at this stage.

QUESTION NO 91

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Minister of Local Government:

1.	Whether his Department has been approached to fund and/or provide street/vicinity electrification for the Ndaleni and Magoda areas near Richmond, and if so:

	i)	Whether the Richmond TLC, or his Department, or any other organisation, has done an investigation into the most appropriate and cost effective means of providing such street/vicinity lighting and where such information can be inspected?

	ii)	Whether there has been co-operation between his Department and the KwaZulu-Natal Peace Initiative on this issue and if so what the current status of such an operation is?

	iii)	Whether, in the light of President Mandela's public comments, any funds and/or other initiative from National Government have been made available for this purpose and if so what the relevant details are?

	iv)	How funding responsibility for installation and subsequent maintenance and operation has been split?

	v)	What the estimated relevant costs are?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):

1.	Yes, the Richmond Transitional Local Council approached the Department of Local Government and Housing for funding for 60 high mast lights, to have a huge area in the Indaleni, Magoda and Isonozomeni areas of the Transitional Local Council.

	i)	The Department of Local Government and Housing carried out a detailed investigation and advised Richmond Transitional Local Council, that the proposal was unaffordable and unsustainable.  This information can be inspected at the office of the Chief Director Inland Region in Pietermaritzburg.

	ii)	There has been no approach to the Department from the KZN Peace Initiative.

	iii)	National involvement has included Eskom's negotiations to assist Richmond with "soft" loans or grants, and approached by the National Department of Safety and Security to the Member of Executive Cabinet for Local Government and Housing and to the Department of Constitutional Development and Provincial Affairs.

	iv) & v)	An amount of R691 890, being the cost of erecting six high mast lights, was approved as a grant by the Department of Local Government and Housing from the Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme (C M I P).  This grant was subsequently suspended, pending investigation of possible dual funding, as the Minister of Public Enterprises has publicly claimed that Eskom, operating under the auspices of her Department, has provided the necessary funding for this project.  The payment of the subsequent operating costs, said to be R2 400 per month for the six masts, would have to be resolved between Eskom and Richmond TLC.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  That concludes the standing over questions.  We now continue with the questions for oral reply.  Question No 92 by Mr Nel to the Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs. 

QUESTION NO 92

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs:

Whether he is aware of any cutting of timber in the Dukuduku Forest and/or the Kwazibi and Mnyayizwa areas of the Kosi Bay Forest Reserve, and if so:

1.	Whether any persons have permission to fell timber in the abovementioned forest and by what authority such permission is given;

2.	Whether he has taken steps in either case to stop such exploitation;

3.	Whether any prosecutions have been initiated and the details thereof;

4.	What the extent of the illegal felling is;

If not, what steps the Minister will take to appraise himself of the situation, and whether he will make a full statement on the current position in this regard.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs?

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional & Environmental Affairs & Safety & Security):  Thank you, sir.  The reply is as follows:

WRITTEN AND VERBAL REPLY:

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional &  Environmental Affairs & Safety & Security):

1.	No persons have been given permission to fell timber in the abovementioned forests.

2.	There have been many attempts to achieve a negotiated settlement with me playing a personal role, but which the local people have, to a large extent, ignored in the Kosi Bay Forest Reserve.

3.	No prosecutions have recently been initiated.

	In the Kosi Bay Forest Reserve, prosecution have been instituted and a number of people have been prosecuted over the years.  As a result of the resentment these prosecutions have caused, there have been a number of incidences of the mass destruction of reserve fences and the burning down of various other facilities.

4.	 25 hectares.

	I have personally visited the area on a number of occasions, the most recent being on the 20 July 1998.  The cutting of timber has been ongoing since people moved into Dukuduku.  Timber has been used for house building, fencing, firewood, bush clearing, for agriculture and curios.

	Recently, they have started chopping into the indigenous bush to make charcoal in Dukuduku South.  This is not part of the recognised casuarina charcoal project spearheaded by a Mr Sithole who is only burning casuarina wood.

	Kosi Bay Forest Reserve has been saturated with Field Rangers.  Anyone who is caught felling trees is arrested immediately.

Then, in addition to that, Mr Speaker, this coming Friday, we are visiting Dukuduku Forest together with the hon members of my Portfolio Committee responsible for Environmental Affairs.  I thank you.

QUESTION NO 93

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Premier:

In respect of the KwaZulu-Natal Peace Initiative Nseleni ONGOYE ELECTRIFICATION PROJECT (Region 13).

1.	Whether the electrical consultants have been appointed and if so, who?

2.	Whether land surveyors have been appointed and if so, who?

3.	Whether the powerline route surveys have been completed?

4.	What the scope of the work of electrical consultant's work is?

THE PREMIER:

1.	Yes.  Duke Engineering Service.

2.	Yes, the surveyor is Iphothwe Powerline Service.

3.	Yes, the powerline has been completed.

4.	The electrical Consultant's scope of work, as specialists, is to ensure that the standard of work as required by Eskom is maintained.




QUESTION NO 94

MR R M BURROWS:  Asks the Premier:

In respect of the R80m for Peace Education:

1.	Whether RTM Human Resource Consultants CC are authorised to advertise for and receive proposals for a Peace Education curriculum, and if so:

	(i)	what the closing date for submission of proposals is;
	(ii)	How the proposals were advertised and in which publications and which organisations were specifically approached;
	(iii)	What criteria on budget parameters were indicated to prospective proposers?
	(iv)	When proposals will be adjudicated and by whom;
	(v)	If the closing date for proposals has expired, how many were received and from whom;
	(vi)	Whether the Tender Board is, or has been, involved in assessing the applicants; if not, why not?

THE PREMIER:

1.	(i)	Yes, RTM Human Resource Consultants CC is authorised in terms of the contract signed between the Government of KwaZulu-Natal and the company, through the State Attorney.  Furthermore, through the Management Committee, which meets monthly and whose meetings are recorded.

	(ii)	The closing date for submission of proposals was on June 30 1998.

	(iii)	The call for proposals was advertised in the Mercury, Thursday, May 28 1998, The Sunday Tribune, Sunday, May 31 1998.

		No organisation was specifically approached to submit a proposal.  However, all that responded to the advert who have done work in the area of Peace/Training/Education, were given an opportunity to make presentations.

		The budget was not specified.  However, through the advertisement and the Task Directives, information about the programme and proposal parameters were provided so that the proposers could propose a product and advise the KZN Peace Initiative how much that would cost.

	(iv)	The adjudication process took place from the second week of July until the third week.  Presentations by the short-listed organisations were on Friday, 17 July 1998.  The adjudication Committee consisted of the following people;

		a.	Mr E P M Radebe, Chairman, KwaZulu-Natal Tender Board.
		b.	Mr W K Radebe, Former Inspector of Schools, KwaZulu-Natal Government.
		c.	Mr M T Rodolo, Project Manager, KZN Peace Initiative.
		d.	Mr S G Ngcobo, Director, HR Communications.
		e.	Mr S S Chonco, Director Incwadi-Senzokuhle Associates and Lecture of Education, University of Zululand.
		f.	Mr R T Msomi, CEO, RTM Human Resource Consultants CC.

	(v)	11 Proposals were received from the following organisations/consortia:

		a.	Magabheni Youth Movement
		b.	B W Khuzwayo and Associates
		c.	Interact Human Resources Consultants
		d.	Amandla Group Project
		e.	Community Life Projects
		f.	KZN Peace Education Consortium (Led by Southern Natal Children's Rights Committee)
		g.	Consortium on Peace Education Curriculum Development (Led by the Institute for Multi-Party Democracy).
		h.	Community Conflict Management and Resolution.
		i.	University of Natal Consortium (Submitted on equal partnership between the Centre for Adult Education, Pietermaritzburg; Department of Adult and Community Education, Durban and Idasa).
		j.	N Ngwane and Associates
		k.	Madadeni Development Forum.

	(vi)	The Tender Board is not involved.  It gave relaxation, authorising the Director-General to proceed with the details of the KZN Peace Initiative.

QUESTION NO 95

MR R M BURROWS:  Asks the Premier:

In respect of the KZN Peace Initiative SAKHUXOLO MULTI-SKILLS TRAINING CENTRE Project for Lower Tugela/Maphumulo (Region 8):

1.	Whether an architect has been appointed and if so whom?

2.	Whether a quantity surveyor has been appointed and if so whom?

3.	Whether final plans and Bills of Quantities have been drawn up and where such can be inspected?

4.	How the architects and/or quantity surveyors and any other consultants were identified, selected and by whom they were appointed?

5.	Who is authorised to sign letters of appointment of the above professionals and what were the parameters of that person-groups' authority?

6.	What fees have been paid or are owing to the architects and quantity surveyors concerned for work performed by them to date on this project (i.e. Region 8)?

7.	How professional fees are determined?

THE PREMIER:

1.	Yes, an architect has been appointed by the name of: Ambro Afrique.

2.	Yes, the surveyor is: Bhan, Tayob, Khan and Matunda.

3.	An update will be furnished soon in this regard.

4.	The visit was undertaken by KZN Peace Initiative Technical Manager, Ms Sandra Yetton together with the Project Committee to 5 consultants/architects, inspecting their work and talking to them.  The final decision was taken by the Region 3 Project Committee.

5.	The letter of appointment is drawn by our Technical Manager and signed Mr M T Rodolo, the Project Manager and Mr Msomi, CEO for RTM Human Resources Consultants (management consultants to KwaZulu-Natal Peace Initiative).

6.	No money has been paid to date.  The policy is to pay on invoice for work completed.

7.	The professional fees are gazetted in the KwaZulu-Natal Government Gazette.  Gazetted rates are followed.

QUESTION NO 96

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Premier:

In respect of the KwaZulu-Natal Peace Initiative SAKHUXOLO SPORTS CENTRE PROJECT for Lower Tugela/Maphumulo (Region 8):

1.	Whether the Premier can furnish a list of all existing open air sports facilities in this region, and their location, and specify for what sports they are suitable?

2.	Whether the Premier can furnish demographic statistics for the region together with indications of geographic population distribution?

3.	Whether the location of this new stadium is in his opinion, suitable to serve the most under provided sectors of the region?

4.	Where the supporting data for identification of the required type of facility and its location can be inspected?

THE PREMIER:

1.	During the Workshop held on 29 November 1997, when the proposition of the Sports Centre was put forward, 1997 when the proposition of the stake holders attending, whether there were any sports centres in the Region.  The answer was a definite: "NO".  So, according to this answer, there are no suitable sports facilities in the Region 3 (Mapumulo, Lower Tugela).

2.	These would be available from Statistical service.

3.	The modus operandi of the Programme is to give the Project Committee free rein to decide on the location of the Project following the decision on the location of the Project following the criteria given at the Induction of the Committee.  The location of the project is freely accessible to frequenters of the centre, being on the "T" Junction of roads from Maphumulo, Stanger via Doornkop and Tugela.  It is adjacent to the Tugela River for people across the Tugela to frequent.

4.	Yes, there are minutes of the workshop of 29 November 1997, and those of the Project Committee alone, and of the Project Committee with the Technical Team.

	See also the answer to Mr Burrow's Question Number 95.

QUESTION NO 97

MR F DLAMINI:  Asks the Minister of Social Welfare:

With regards to deployment of Social Workers, the following information is requested:

1.	Names and ranks of all Social Workers who have been deployed as at 31 July 1998.

	Numbers are required for each of the following categories, for the whole Province viz. Regional Offices and Service Offices.

2.	How many subsidised Social Workers posts are there per district?

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):

1.	Names and ranks of all social workers who have been deployed as at 31 July 1998.

	(i)	In Durban region the following social workers have been deployed as at 31 July 1998:

		(a)	Miss J Chetty - Chief Social worker has been deployed from Chatsworth to Pinetown.
		(b)	Miss V Isaacs - Chief Social worker has been deployed from Chatsworth to Pinetown.

	(ii)	In ~Ulundi~ region the following are the names and ranks of Social Workers who have been deployed:

		(a)	Z M Mabaso - Senior Social Worker from Nqutu to Babanango.
		(b)	L Khumalo - Chief Social Worker from Dundee to Dannhauser.
		(c)	M N Khuluse - Chief Social Worker from Ladysmith to Dundee.
		(d)	C L Ncala - Senior Social Worker from Nqutu to Glencoe.
		(e)	M S Linda - Chief Social Worker from Lower Umfolozi to Umthunzini.
		(f)	T E Mlotshwa - Administration Director from School of Industrial to Madadeni.
		(g)	Z E Nkosi - Chief Social Worker from Madadeni to Utrecht.
		(h)	P F Mdletshe - Chief Social Worker from Ongoye to Ngwelezane Place of Safety.
		(i)	T R Ngema - Chief Social Worker from Ezakheni - Mkabayi Children's Home.
		(j)	R B Mazibuko - Senior Social Worker from Madadeni to Osizweni Handicraft.

	(iii)	In Pietermaritzburg region no deployment was done.

2.	Number of subsidised Social Workers posts per district.

	(i)	In ~Ulundi~ Region number of subsidised Social Work posts stand thus:

		Empangeni	20
		Newcastle	10
		Vryheid 	6
		Dundee 	3
		Nongoma 	2
		Eshowe 	2
		Utrecht 	1
		Mtubatuba	 1

	(ii)	In Pietermaritzburg region subsidised Social Workers posts are as follows:

		CMS	23
		CMR	1
		NCVV 	6
		Cripple Care 	2
		Mental Health	13
		Sanel 	3
		Natal Deaf and Blind	3
		KwaNacrod	2

	(iii)	In Durban region subsidised posts are as follows:

		Pinetown CWS		-	Pinetown	18
		Chatsworth CW		-	Chatsworth	8,5
		Verulam CW		-	Verulam	8
		Highway Aged		-	Pinetown	2
		Verulam Day Care	-	Verulam	1
		Nacrod			-	Durban	14
		Nicro			-	Durban	10
		Tafta			-	Durban	9
		KwaMashu CWS		-	Durban	8
		Amanzimtoti CWS	-	Vulamehlo	1
		Margate			-	Izingolweni	1
		Umzinto			-	Umzinto	3
		Tamsa			-	Durban	8
		Epilepsy Foundation	-	Durban	10
		Natal Society 
			for the Blind	-	Durban
		Port Shepstone -
			Merlewood	-	Izingolweni	1
		Port Shepstone - 
			Marburg		-	Izingolweni	4
		Subusisiwe Clermont	-	Pinetown	1
		Cathulani CWS		-	Ndwedwe	1
		Stanger & 
			District CWS	-	Stanger	1
		Association for the
			Phy. Challenge	-	Durban	7
		Council for C & FW	-	Durban	0,5
		Tongaat African		-	Tongaat	1
		Tongaat Indian CWS	-	Tongaat	9
		Durban Child 
			Welfare		-	Durban	35
		CMR Durban		-	Durban	6
		Child family & Comm.
			Care Centre	-	Durban	32
		Phoenix CW		-	Durban	20

THE SPEAKER:  Your questions are before the Ministers concerned.

May I propose that I now leave the Chair.  I will leave it to the Deputy Speaker to continue with the Orders of the Day, which is a matter of listening to the answering of questions that have been put.  I hope that Mr Makhaye will hold his peace and we will have a quiet honourable and dignified ending to this session.  Thank you.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  I will try, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  LAUGHTER AND INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER LEAVES THE CHAIR AND THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TAKES THE CHAIR

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  It is a new procedure, but will the House please resume.  We will proceed with the Order Paper, Item 8.1.
We will start with the questions to the Premier.  Questions No 98 and No 100 are questions for oral reply.  The hon Premier?

QUESTION NO 98

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Asks the Premier:

1.	Whether he has submitted any matter to the Health Commission for investigation?

2.	If so, when was the matter or matters referred to the Health Commission and what does the matter or matters relate to?

3.	Whether he is prepared to make a statement on the matter?

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

1.	The answer to the question is yes.  The following matters as proclaimed have been referred:

2.	Proclamation R21/1998 KwaZulu-Natal dated 25 February 1998.

	(a)	Department of Transport:  Theft, inflated order forms, etcetera.

	(b)	Department of Local Government and Housing:  Cheques, false contracts, private use of equipment, purchase of steel containers.


3.	Proclamation R41/1998 KwaZulu-Natal dated 6 April 1998:
	
	Fraudulent cheques - Tribal levies and Trust account - Department of Traditional and Environmental Affairs.

4.	Proclamation R25/1998 KwaZulu-Natal dated 28 July 1998:

	(a)	Department of Education.

	(b)	Department of Local Government and Housing.

	(c)	Department of Transport.

There is no need to make a statement, Mr Speaker, because this is factual information which I have given the House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, on a matter arising from that reply, may I enquire from the Premier as to whether any funds have been recovered by Judge Heath, because his appointment primarily centres around the task to recover funds that were lost.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Premier?

THE PREMIER:  The Judge reported that he was in the process of recovering huge amounts of money.  I do not have those figures on hand.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Bhamjee?

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Will the hon Premier please broadly indicate to us what his estimation is of the monies that we lost via the various investigations that the Health Commission is in the process of investigating.  Could the Premier tell us clearly, or give us an indication, how much in actual terms is he hoping to recover.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, this is a rather difficult question, because the extent of the fraud, the type of crimes involved, cover a huge area.  In Works alone, there were huge amounts of cheques that were fraudulently cashed.  I will give you a dimension of say, per cheque R350,000 to this person, R250,000, R600,000, it is millions of rands, but it is not possible to actually fix an estimate.  It is a lot of money and we hope that if we could recover the money, it would improve our fiscal position.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon Mr Edwards.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Just arising from the hon Premier's reply, I am concerned about monies that have been allocated to this Province from RDP funds, first to the Education Department and then to Health for the School Nutrition Programme.  Last year in July we had a verbal report from a firm of auditors who were  investigating, to say there was unaccounted for some R38 million in the 1994 year and R27 million in the 1995 year and R4 million in the following year, and this year we do not know what it is.  Has this come to his notice and been reported to the Health Commission, or where is the investigation at this stage?  It appears to me it has been put under wraps and I think this House and this Province should be very worried about it.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, it is departments who initiate the investigations.  They bring the whole issue either to the Police for prosecution, or it is referred to my office for proclamation and request and passed on to Judge Heath.  I do know that the Department of Health has been dealing with the issue of the Nutrition Programme, and that of course many questions have arisen in terms of the Auditor's report, but there has been no recommendation that there was a criminal element in this, which needed to be prosecuted, or which needed to be referred to the Judge.  So at this stage I cannot give adequate information on this question.  I would have to refer it, so if the hon member can give me a written request, we shall do that.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  We then proceed with question No 99, the question asked by Mr Nel to the Minister of Education and Culture.

QUESTION NO 99

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Minister of Education and Culture:

In respect of learners enroled in state schools in KwaZulu-Natal

1.	Does the KZNDEC have a table of age/grade distributions for KZN schools?  If not, why not?  If so, what is the table for 1998?

2.	Whether there are any learners who enroled for the first time for formal school education (Grade 1) and who, at registration at the beginning of the 1998 academic year were aged 8 or older and are there any special arrangements for their accommodation within the education system?

Whether the Minister will make a statement on the general issue of accommodation of learners within the system who are more than three years older than the norm for their particular grade in school?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

1.	The KZNDEC does have a table of age/grade distribution for KZN schools.  This information is acquired from the Annual Survey of Schools, and the statistics for 1998 are presently being captured.  This information will be available at the end of October 1998.

2.	The details of these learners are also presently being captured and will be available at the end of October.  A bridging programme is utilised by the schools to extend these learners.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  Arising out of the reply of the hon Minister to this question, can I ask whether the Minister has been party to the position that the Department of National Education, as I understand, investigating regarding a common admission norm for all schools, including age distribution for all standards, whereby a requirement should be that no child be more than two years away from a norm for that standard.  I understand that the Department of National Education has been in consultation, certainly, with the Portfolio Committee of the National Assembly, regarding admissions to schools from the year of the child aged 7, not 6 as it is in this Province.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Minister?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Speaker, I am aware that the matter is under discussion, but we have not dealt with the matter at MINMEC.  Not yet.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Could I ask the hon Minister, is he aware that the Department of National Education has some two weeks ago, produced statistics as to the ages of learners in the various grades.  They had done that nationally, therefore they must have used some figures from KwaZulu-Natal.  They showed in that particular table in grade 1, a 136% enrolment in the country.  That shows a great many learners who are under age in grade 1 and a certain amount of over aged people at the grade 8 level, which is estimated cost this country R1.2b last year.  Is the Minister aware of this and what is the position in KwaZulu-Natal?  Can you give us some figures of the under age enrolment and what is the cost estimated in KwaZulu-Natal, of incorrect enrolment age?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Minister?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Speaker, the statistics that the hon member is talking about is now a public matter, but our Department has not been in a position to ascertain the correctness of those figures.  It was a survey that was done by the National Department.  There are of course some issues that have to be dealt with, because sometimes there is this confusion about the compulsory education which is supposed to start at 7.  But then, for instance in our KwaZulu-Natal Education Act we are saying six-and-a-half before June.  We are also aware that there are people that have been sneaking in children even before they reach the correct ages.  There are problems, for instance, as to how people get the birth certificates, because they produce those birth certificates and they claim the children are that age.  Exactly how the research was done and how they came to those figures is something that we still have to analyse and look into our own statistics.  I referred to the collection of the statistics and authenticating those.  That is the process that we are engaged in right now.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Shall we then proceed with question No 100. 

QUESTION NO 100

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Asks the Premier:

1.	Whether the Province has made a financial grant towards the centenary celebrations of the Anglo-Boer war?

2.	If so, what amount is involved?

3.	If not, why not?

4.	Whether he is prepared to make a statement on the matter?

THE PREMIER:  The answer is, Mr Speaker, no.  Although Cabinet noted and expressed its support to a presentation made in respect of the commemoration of the 1899/1902 Anglo Boer War, no financial grant was given directly by the Province.  However, the Tourism Authority has made funds available and has also paid for some of the officials to go overseas to market the event, especially to Great Britain.  

AMAFA, which is our monuments' council organisation in this Province, is also helping with the cleaning up and restoration of the battlefields and they will spend a lot of energy on this.  The responsible authority, which is the Tourism Authority in KZN, its members sit on the planning committees of the Anglo Boer War Celebration Committee.  This celebration has the support of all political parties in this Province.  We see huge economic opportunity for entrepreneurs of KwaZulu-Natal.  These celebrations are inclusive.  

For the first time, the role of Africans who were involved in this war, is being recognised by the organising committee and they are going to be included and those families will be recognised and will benefit from this celebration.  I must add that all provincial role players are involved in the planning of the 120th celebrations of the Battle of Isandlwana which is going to be a major event.  This is being jointly planned with the Royal Regiment of Wales and their regimental band will be coming for the celebrations.  It will be a huge event of international dimensions.

As far as the second part is concerned, I cannot stipulate the amounts of money that have been used by the Tourism Authority, or by AMAFA KwaZulu.

As far as 3 is concerned, I would say that the current financial position of the Province does not allow excessive funding, because we are tightening our belts.  Therefore, we did not budget for a very definite grant, outright grant, for the celebrations, although we are giving them support through departments as far as is possible.  Of course, I do not think I need to make a statement beyond what I have said.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  Mr Makhaye?

MR D H MAKHAYE: TRANSLATION:  The follow up question to the Premier's response.  I was asking that as this year we are completing 160 years, there's Nonyana the usurper who took Bulawayo's bull by force doing what he was supposed to be doing.  This year how are we going to celebrate such an important day, Mbovu.  T/E

THE PREMIER:  Well, the question does not follow logically from the previous answer and the reply I gave, but nevertheless it is an important issue.  I think the celebrations at KwaDukuza acknowledged quite clearly the continental role of Ilembe eleqa amanye amaLembe.  I do believe that those celebrations at KwaDukuza and in Nongoma, actually gave recognition to that role.  I do not believe that we are in a position to sponsor another celebration because of funding constraints.  Nevertheless, it is an important issue which we could include in our celebrations next year.

AN HON MEMBER: [Kill the witch]

AN HON MEMBER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.

MR D H MAKHAYE: [Mbovu, I was talking about Vezi Nonyana because it is the one which made it possible for us to be free today.  We know what he did].  I am actually asking, are there any preparations for the celebration of the 150th Anniversary of the wise words of King Dingaan, he who knew how to deal with the enemy.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, we are being taken further away from the original question, but I will oblige the hon member.  We are in very close co-operation with the National Department of Arts and Culture, Science and Technology.  A monument has been planned and it is going to be built this October, across the existing monument of wagons.  It will be built on the opposite side and a pedestrian bridge is going to connect the two monuments.  There are going to be huge celebrations in October to mark this event.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Shall we then proceed with the next question on the Order Paper.  That will be Questions to Ministers and questions for oral reply.

QUESTION NO 101

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Asks the Premier:

1.	(a)	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter (3 months 1 April to 30 June 1998) of the current financial year?

	(b)	What was the estimated budgeted expenditure for the same period?

2.	In respect of any material variations between actual and budgeted expenditure;

	(a)	What is the variation in:
		(i)	Rands
		(ii)	Percentages, and

	(b)	Can reasons be given for such variation?

3.	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter of the 1997/1998 financial year?

THE PREMIER:

1.	(a)	R 14 396 million

	(b)	R 12,932 million


2.	(a)	(i)	R1,464 million overspent.
		(ii)	11,32%

	(b)	The main reason for this over expenditure can be attributed to:-

		1.	The Emandleni-Matleng Camp:	R 900,000
			The Emandleni-Matleng Camp, due to financial commitments in the previous financial year, overspent its budget and this matter had to be addressed in this financial year to the effect that through interaction with Cabinet, additional funds were made available to alleviate the problem.

		2.	Postage:	R 564,000
			The handling of all postage, on a centralised basis within the Natalia building, was the responsibility of my Department.  It was however, established during a recent analysis that my Department is responsible for less than one percent of the total postage being generated through this centralised process.  It was therefore resolved to decentralise this function to all departments in the building, together with funds and, the amount of R564,000 represents expenditure for the months of April, May and June 1998 which still needs to be journaled across to the other departments in the building.

3.	R 16,147 million.

QUESTION NO 102

MR J C N WAUGH:  Asks the Minister of Transport:

1.	(a)	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter (3 months 1 April to 30 June 1998) of the current financial year?


	(b)	What was the estimated budgeted expenditure for the same period?

2.	In respect of any material variations between actual and budgeted expenditure;

	(a)	What is the variation in:
		(i)	Rands
		(ii)	Percentages, and

	(b)	Can reasons be given for such variation?

3.	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter of the 1997/1998 financial year?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):

1.	(a)	The actual expenditure for the first quarter of the financial year was R98 653,00.

	(b)	The estimated budgeted expenditure for the same period was R119 866 000,00.

2.	(i)	R21 213 000

	(ii)	18%

3.	The actual expenditure for the first quarter of the 1997/1998 financial year was R155 871 752.

QUESTION NO 103

MR J C MATTHEE:  Asks the Minister of Health:

1.	(a)	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter (3 months 1 April to 30 June 1998) of the current financial year?

	(b)	What was the estimated budgeted expenditure for the same period?

2.	In respect of any material variations between actual and budgeted expenditure;

	(a)	What is the variation in:
		(i)	Rands
		(ii)	Percentages, and

	(b)	Can reasons be given for such variation?

3.	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter of the 1997/1998 financial year?

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):

1.	(a)	R 1,129,898,919

	(b)	R 1,156,612,000

2.	(a)	(i)	R 26,713,081
		(ii)	2.31%

	(b)	(i)	Savings on Personnel expenditure due to reduction in overtime and freezing of posts approximately R 36,000,000.
		(ii)	The backlog in payments approximately  R10,000,000 only cleared in August 1998.
		(iii)	Inter-Responsibility Clearing Account approximately R 13,200,000.  A delay in 3 months is Reflecting expenditure.
		(iv)	An over-expenditure on other standard items of R 9,792,746.
		-	A real saving of approximately R 3,000,000 has been achieved.

3.	R1,097,164,622.


QUESTION NO 104

MRS C E GALEA:  Asks the Minister of Social Welfare:

1.	(a)	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter (3 months 1 April to 30 June 1998) of the current financial year?

	(b)	What was the estimated budgeted expenditure for the same period?

2.	In respect of any material variations between actual and budgeted expenditure;

	(a)	What is the variation in:
		(i)	Rands
		(ii)	Percentages, and

	(b)	Can reasons be given for such variation?

3.	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter of the 1997/1998 financial year?

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):

1.	(a)	The actual expenditure for the 1st quarter of the financial year was R852 506 000 (see Annexure C).

	(b)	The budgeted expenditure for the first quarter was R998 821 000. (See Annexure D).

2.	(a)	The variation between the actual and budgeted expenditure was R146 315 000, which accounts for 14% of the projected budget for the period.

	(b)	The variation of 13% is due to the following reasons:-

		(	The Department had catered for the payment of backlogs in respect of 11,900 grant recipients from June to September 1998.  The total amount involved in the settlement of backlogs is R210m which was to be settled in instalments of R52,5m per month from June to September 1998.  The information in relation to the grant recipients concerned was captured into the Socpen computer system from May 1998.  However, due to some technical problems, the system did not generate payments in June as planned.  The expenditure began to increase in July 1998 as can be seen in the Cash Flow for the current financial year (Annexure B).  As a result of this problem, it is expected that the payment of backlogs will continue until the end of October 1998.

		(	As at the end of June, professional fee claims in respect of services rendered by Cash Paymaster Services had not been paid due to the fact that these claims had been sent to the incorrect address.  These were subsequently paid in July 1998 and the amount involved was R17m.

		(	During the first quarter of the current financial year, the Department limited the acquisition of stores and equipment to absolute bare necessities, which resulted in under expenditure.

		(	The Department strongly believes that the activities of the Fraud Unit which led to the arrest, among others, of 46 Swazi citizens, coupled with the announcement of the re-registration campaign, are beginning to bear fruit in the sense that there are already reports of a decline in the number of people who are collecting grants at various pay-points.  The Department is in the process of quantifying the savings in this regard.

3.	The actual expenditure for the Department during the first quarter of the previous financial year was R776,5m, which accounted for 21% of the budget.  See Annexure C.



QUESTION NO 105

MR R MORAR:  Asks the Minister of Housing:

1.	(a)	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter (3 months 1 April to 30 June 1998) of the current financial year?

	(b)	What was the estimated budgeted expenditure for the same period?

2.	In respect of any material variations between actual and budgeted expenditure;

	(a)	What is the variation in:
		(i)	Rands
		(ii)	Percentages, and

	(b)	Can reasons be given for such variation?

3.	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter of the 1997/1998 financial year?

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):

1.	(a)	R7 460 737,43

	(b)	R9 497 250,00

2.	(a)	(i)	R2 036 513
		(ii)	21,44%

	(b)	The under-expenditure can be attributed to the following savings:

		*	A saving has been achieved for land and buildings to the value of R1,4 million.  This has been reprojected under other line items in the second quarter.

		*	The termination of certain management consultants appointments has resulted in savings Professional and Special Services item code.

		Payment claims by the Sakasonke Joint Venture under the Housing Delivery programme was not in-line with their cashflow projections.  This has subsequently been remedied in the second quarter of this financial year.

3.	R9 366 917,18

QUESTION NO 106

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Local Government:

1.	(a)	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter (3 months 1 April to 30 June 1998) of the current financial year?

	(b)	What was the estimated budgeted expenditure for the same period?

2.	In respect of any material variations between actual and budgeted expenditure;

	(a)	What is the variation in:
		(i)	Rands
		(ii)	Percentages, and

	(b)	Can reasons be given for such variation?

3.	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter of the 1997/1998 financial year?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):

1.	(a)	R194 391 977,78
	(b)	R193 791 000,00

2.	(a)	(i)	R600 977
		(ii)	0,31%
	(b)	N/A

3.	R157 361 380,87

QUESTION NO 107

MR G HAYGARTH:  Asks the Minister of Finance:

1.	(a)	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter (3 months 1 April to 30 June 1998) of the current financial year?

	(b)	What was the estimated budgeted expenditure for the same period?

2.	In respect of any material variations between actual and budgeted expenditure;

	(a)	What is the variation in:
		(i)	Rands
		(ii)	Percentages, and

	(b)	Can reasons be given for such variation?

3.	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter of the 1997/1998 financial year?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, I reply to the question as listed in the Question Paper under 107 as follows:

1.	R21 615 018

2.	R21 294 375

3.	(a)	R220 643 or 1.03%
	(b)	There are no material variations.

4.	R21 664 000.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.

QUESTION NO 108

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Asks the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism:

1.	(a)	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter (3 months 1 April to 30 June 1998) of the current financial year?

	(b)	What was the estimated budgeted expenditure for the same period?

2.	In respect of any material variations between actual and budgeted expenditure;

	(a)	What is the variation in:
		(i)	Rands
		(ii)	Percentages, and

	(b)	Can reasons be given for such variation?

3.	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter of the 1997/1998 financial year?

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):

1.	(a)	The actual expenditure for the period 1 April to 30 June 1998 is R24 210 459.

	(b)	The estimated budget for the same period was R27 022 332.

2.	(a)	(i)	The variation in rands is R2,811,873.
		(ii)	Expressed in a percentage is 10%.


	(b)	The variations are explained as follows:

		The total variance of R2 811 873 less R1 000 000 - Subsidy to the Tourism Authority delayed because of non receipt of the business plan.

		R1 811 873 less R380 000 delay in the set up of Community Based Tourism Structures to drive the process in the Sandlwana, Nodunga and Gcwensa areas.

		R1 431 873 less R295 000 - delay by Ntsiki to accredit service providers in the Province.

		R1 136 873 less R515 000 - delay in the process of selecting external resource to undertake Provincial Wide Project Scan, delay in the hosting of the Provincial Local Economic Consultative Workshop due to delay in the finalization of the LED Framework.

		R621 873 less R80 000 - Consumer Education Projects had to be delayed because of capacity building within the Department.

		R541,873 - Various projects which entail facilitation and Management by Consultants, one being Stretegic Research Framework which had to be delayed because of non finalization of agreements with Consultants by State Attorney.

3.	The expenditure for the first quarter of the financial year 1997/98 was R27 960 797.

QUESTION NO 109

MR S V NAICKER:  Asks the Minister of Public Works:

1.	(a)	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter (3 months 1 April to 30 June 1998) of the current financial year?

	(b)	What was the estimated budgeted expenditure for the same period?

2.	In respect of any material variations between actual and budgeted expenditure;

	(a)	What is the variation in:
		(i)	Rands
		(ii)	Percentages, and

	(b)	Can reasons be given for such variation?

3.	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter of the 1997/1998 financial year?

REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works):

Actual Expenditure 
	1 April 1998 - 30 June 1998	R146 510 000,00
Estimated Expenditure (budgeted)	R206 459 000,00
Variation	R 59 949 000,00

Actual Expenditure is 29% under against projected expenditure.

REASONS


ACTUAL EXPENDITURE
R
PROJECTED EXPENDITURE
R

VARIANCE
R
(1)
Personnel
41 535 000,00
44 580 000,00
3 045 000,00
(2)
Admin
3 000 000,00
4 329 000,00
1 329 000,00
(1)
Stores/
Livestock
295 000,00
411 000,00
116 000,00
(2)
Equipment
135 000,00
67 000,00
68 000,00
(3)
Land & Building
9 068 000,00
10 596 000,00
1 528 000,00
(4)
P & S
91 287 000,00
145 156 000,00
53 869 000,00
(5)
Miscellaneous
1 190 000,00
1 320 000,00
130 000,00


R146 510 000,00
R206 459 000,00
R59 949 000,00

(1)	(a)	Education personnel transferred to Works was paid by Education for April although funds were suspended to Works.  Anticipated expenditure was included in projection.  This matter is at present under investigation.  Key control posts must still be staffed.  Provision must also be made to cater for automatic rank and leg promotions.

	(b)	Identified funds which have since been transferred to local government were also included in the projection.

(2)	The saving reflected will be re-allocated to Cleaning Services for which no funds were budgeted.

(3)	The anticipated saving of R68 000 has since been re-allocated to cleaning services.

(4)	Strict control measures have since been enforced to ensure that the Department will stay within the adjusted budget of R402 000 for computer equipment and office furniture.  An amount of R618 000 of the original allocation of R1 020 000 will be viremented to Cleaning Services.

(5)	The total budget of R36 056 000 was projected over 12 months in equal monthly projections.  If expenditure is projected according to present expenditure trends, no saving is anticipated for the financial year.

(6)	(a)	The projection includes for the New Durban Academic Hospital on which an average of R10m per month was spent less than the equally monthly division of the budget.  This is mainly due to contractual fluctuations.  It is envisaged that the total budget will be expended during the current financial year.

	(b)	Due to budget constraints, only emergency repairs are executed which makes sure monthly projection of expenditure impossible.

(7)	The main item contribution to this lower expenditure is Stabilisation fund which goes hand in hand with Personnel expenditure.

GLOBAL FINANCIAL REPORT FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF WORKS

FINANCIAL REPORT : PERIOD ENDING JUNE 1997


	FUNCTION

	
	1

	ALLOCATION
	1997/8

	2

	EXPENDITURE
	UP TO 30/06/97

	3
	%
	SPENT AGAINST
	BUDGET

	4
Total per programme
R1'000
R1'OOO

Programme 1:

Administration RDP Discretionary Fund


159 524


38 425
(341)


24%
Programme 2:

Acquisition of land, control & disposal



1 250



3 356



268%
Programme 3:

Provision of buildings, structures & equipment



425 347



181 601



43%
Programme 4:

Auxiliary & Associated Services



8 828



1 081



12%
TOTAL
594 949
224 122
38%
QUESTION NO 110

MR J C N WAUGH:  Asks the Minister of Agriculture:

1.	(a)	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter (3 months 1 April to 30 June 1998) of the current financial year?

	(b)	What was the estimated budgeted expenditure for the same period?

2.	In respect of any material variations between actual and budgeted expenditure;

	(a)	What is the variation in:
		(i)	Rands
		(ii)	Percentages, and

	(b)	Can reasons be given for such variation?

3.	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter of the 1997/1998 financial year?

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):

1.	(a)	April 1998:	R 20 696 538 
		May 1998:	R 18 439 539 
		June 1998:	R 21 937 650 
	R 61 073 727 

	(b)	April 1998:	R 23 880 628 
		May 1998:	R 19 989 944 
		June 1998:	R 19 989 944 
	R 63 860 516 




2.	(a)	(i)	April 1998:	R  3 184 090 
			May 1998:	R  1 550 405 
			June 1998:	(R 1 947 706)
	R  2 786 789 

		(ii)	April 1998:	15.38%
			May 1998:	8.41%
			June 1998:	-8.88%
	4.56%

	(b)	Reasons:

		(a)	Goods supplied in April 1998 - invoices received in May and June 1998 and paid in the following months.  The same happened in May 1998.

		(b)	In June 1998, transfer payments were made in terms of programme 6 "Grant in aid".

3.	1997/98:	R 26 850 008
			R 22 964 371
			R 35 624 469
			R 85 438 848

QUESTION NO 111

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Asks the Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs:

1.	(a)	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter (3 months 1 April to 30 June 1998) of the current financial year?

	(b)	What was the estimated budgeted expenditure for the same period?

2.	In respect of any material variations between actual and budgeted expenditure;

	(a)	What is the variation in:
		(i)	Rands
		(ii)	Percentages, and

	(b)	Can reasons be given for such variation?

3.	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter of the 1997/1998 financial year?

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional &  Environmental Affairs & Safety & Security):

1.	(a)	The actual expenditure during the said period was R40 584 517.

	(b)	The budgeted expenditure was R42 619 532.

2.	(a)	(i)	R2 025 015
		(ii)	Percentage wise = 4,75% less than the budgeted expenditure.

	(b)	The expenditure was within the limitations of the cashflow estimates of the Treasury.  It must be understood in the context of the current strict financial discipline which included changing transfer payments from a quarterly to a monthly basis.  It will accelerate once certain advertised Environmental posts are filled.

3.	The corresponding actual expenditure for the first quarter during the previous financial year, i.e. 1997/98 financial year, was R76 213 715.

QUESTION NO 112

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Asks the Minister of Education:

1.	(a)	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter (3 months 1 April to 30 June 1998) of the current financial year?

	(b)	What was the estimated budgeted expenditure for the same period?

2.	In respect of any material variations between actual and budgeted expenditure;

	(a)	What is the variation in:
		(i)	Rands
		(ii)	Percentages, and

	(b)	Can reasons be given for such variation?

3.	What was the actual expenditure of this Department for the first quarter of the 1997/1998 financial year?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

1.	(a)	The estimated budget was R1 768 695 287.

	(b)	The estimated budget was R1 769 490 063.

2.	(a)	(i)	R795 776
		(ii)	1.7%

	(b)	Committed amounts are still being processed.

3.	The actual expenditure for the first quarter of the 1997/98 financial year was R1 908 988 356.

QUESTION NO 113

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Premier:

In respect of the KwaZulu-Natal Peace Initiative SAKHUXOLO MULTI-SKILLS TRAINING CENTRE Project for Lower Tugela/Maphumulo (Region 8):

1.	Whether a construction contract has been awarded and to whom?

2.	Whether normal Provincial Tender procedures were followed, if not, why not?

3.	Whether construction has begun?

4.	Whether the necessary infrastructure to successfully operate the facility are in place, including specifically:
	-	access road
	-	electricity
	-	water
	-	sanitation

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

1.	No construction contract has been awarded as yet but principal agents, Architect and Consultants had been appointed.  Tenders are still to be awarded between October/November 1998.  Construction is due to begin in January 1999.

2.	The KZN Peace Initiative was granted a relaxation by the Tender Board authorities on Provincial Tender procedures.  However, they were to be advised of the process engaged by the Project when awarding tenders.

3.	As indicated above, construction is due to begin by January 1999.

4.	All these necessities were satisfied before the acquisition of permission to the land.

QUESTION NO 114

MR R M BURROWS:  Asks the Premier:

In respect of the KwaZulu-Natal Peace Initiative Nseleni ONGOYE ELECTRIFICATION PROJECT (Region 13):

1.	Whether Eskom assisted in the planning and survey or the powerline network?

2.	Whether Eskom had any plans of their own to install such powerline networks for the area and when?

3.	Why Eskom did not undertake the construction of the said networks at its own expense or on subsidised basis?

4.	Whether Eskom has agreed to supply power to the network to be installed and if so, at what price structure and on what conditions?

5.	Whether Eskom has agreed to take over the network and maintain it at their cost and if so, whether they will reimburse the KwaZulu-Natal Government any amount for infrastructure take over?

THE PREMIER:

1.	Yes, Eskom did assist with the planning and survey.  Early meetings were held with Eskom representatives in Empangeni.  Also Eskom recommended the appointment of certified consultants who did the surveys, in this case DLV and Duke Engineering.

2.	From those meetings it emerged that apart from one area, Mdletsheni, in the region, no provision had been made.  And also Eskom was tight on the budget.  The community insisted on support by KZN Peace Initiative fund.

3.	As mentioned above, Eskom was having a tight budget.  Also the traditional settlement situation made it uneconomical for Eskom to electrify the area.

4.	They have agreed to supply power.  The conditions by KZN Peace Initiative were that structures will be installed in public institutions such as schools, clinics, magistrates courts, etc.

5.	Yes they did agree, but unfortunately there will be no reimbursement to the KwaZulu-Natal Government.

QUESTION NO 115

MR R M BURROWS:  Asks the Minister of Education:

-	Whether Sport and Recreation resorts fall under his Cabinet Portfolio and if so to what extent his Department is responsible for identification of needs for recreation or sporting facilities in under provided communities.

-	Whether his Department has been consulted to consider or comment on requests for such facilities arising out of the KwaZulu-Natal Peace Initiative budget programme?

-	If not, whether his Department intend to take steps to be involved in the process and what such steps are.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

1.	Basic sports facilities which are being built at the moment are funded by the National Department of Sports and Recreation.  Identification of the facilities was done by the National Department of Sports and Recreation in consultation with the Department of Education and Culture.

2.

3.	We will be involved if invited.

QUESTION NO 116

MR S V NAICKER:  Asks the Minister of Housing:

(a)	What is the cost of preparing the 5 year Housing Programme and the 2 year Business Plan, which has been prepared by the Department and its consultants?

(b)	When the Department in previous years, did not spend all its money, one of the main reasons was ascribed to the fact the Department structure was not in place and that all the vacancies had not been filled.  Can the Minister of Housing now confirm whether or not:

	1.	the Departmental structure is in place;   and

	2.	All the vacancies have been filled?

	If not, what are the details?

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):

(a)	Siyakhana, a firm of consultants, has been appointed by this Department to draw up a five year building and two year plan(s).

	The financial implication for this venture therefore is R818 199,85.

(b)	1.	Yes.

	2.	No.

	Funds were not provided for in the 1998/99 Financial Year to fill posts that were vacant prior to November 1997.  It has, therefore, not been possible to fill these posts.

QUESTION NO 117

MR S V NAICKER:  Asks the Minister of Housing:

(a)	How does the Minister for Housing intend to overcome the failing in the proposed national programme for the phasing out of the housing subsidies in terms of the former legislation to provide relief to those tenants/purchasers who were resettled/relocated despite the fact that they were unemployed/low income earners, and who may not be able to afford the proposed market related rentals/instalments?  Did the Minister take this aspect up with the National Minister?  If so what is his/her recommendation?  If not, why not?

(b)	Has the Minister approved the 5 year housing programme and 2 year business plan which has been prepared by the Department?  If so, what:

	(a)	are the details;  and
	(b)	when does he intend to make it public?

	If not, why not and what are the details?

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):

(a)	Cognisance has been taken of the affordability problems that could arise surrounding the phasing out of previous subsidies insofar as the payment of market related rental and instalments are concerned.

	In this regard the present policy proposals at national level are:

	(i)	that assistance be afforded to persons who are aged or disabled and who might not be able to afford the introduction of market related rental/instalments.  Municipalities may therefore in deserving cases, reduce the interest rate on the capital amount.

	(ii)	It has also been suggested by this Province that the discretion embodied in the Housing Act, enabling the MEC to determine rental and instalments at a level lower than market related interest rates, be further extended in the instance of the unemployed.

	The above proposals have resulted in the Department of Housing creating a national task team to come up with a strategy for the implementation of the new programme.  At this stage the proposed date of implementation of the new housing programme is 1 October 1999.

2.	Yes.

	(a)	The details will be available after Cabinet approval.

	(b)	This will be made public after Cabinet approval.  The strategic plan is programmed to be submitted to the next Cabinet sitting.

QUESTION NO 118

MR G HAYGARTH:  Asks the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism:

The Minister in a reply to a question in March 1998 concerning the investment by the Sharks Board Provident in POD Holdings Ltd. stated that the investment represented a breach of Section 19 of the Pensions Fund Act 1956 and that the Board will be directed to rectify the situation.

1.	On what date was the Board so advised and on what date did the Board submit its application?

2.	Has the Board now received approval to the investment concerned?

If yes, the date and content of the reply; and if not, what action the Board is taking to obtain such approval?

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  In relation to question 118, the matter is receiving attention.  There is contact between the Secretary of the Department and the hon Mr Haygarth.  He is happy with the process in that the Sharks Board should keep him updated continuously.  That is the response to this one, Mr Deputy Speaker.  Could I just take advantage.  There are questions which were posed which do not appear on the Question Paper today.

ADV D P A SCHUTTE:  Mr Speaker, may I ask a question arising out of the reply from the hon Minister.  I would like to ask the hon Minister whether it is correct that a meeting will be held at the Sharks Board office with the hon Mr Haygarth to try and resolve this matter?

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Mr Speaker, yes, that is correct.  As I said, there is a process and he is aware of it and that it includes him participating in one of the meetings.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, further arising from the hon Minister's reply, may I ask whether his Department has been involved in any international negotiations to try and secure the interests of the Board through Pod Holdings on patents that have allegedly been misappropriated by previous employees?

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Sorry, Mr Speaker, I could hear get my hon colleague very well?

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I say arising out of the hon Minister's reply, could he tell us whether his Department has been involved in any international negotiations to try and secure the interests of the Sharks Board through its holdings in Pod Holdings Ltd to certain patents that allegedly were misappropriated by previous employees?

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Yes, the Department has been in contact with the Foreign Affairs of the country.  We could not deal with the matter directly, but it has been dealt with through that channel.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The Minister had wanted to say something else on this matter.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  No, I was saying, there are questions that the Department received, two other questions, which do not appear on the Order Paper today.  I was just saying that we were have the answers, but I am in the hands of the Speaker, since they do not appear here.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Minister, what we have placed here are the questions that are outstanding from the last sitting, as well as questions that were timeously put to the Ministers concerned.  The questions that were not put timeously will appear on the next Order Paper.  So I will beg you to please bear with us until that process of putting them on the Order Paper has been finalised.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  As my lord pleases.

QUESTION NO 119

MR G HAYGARTH:  Asks the Minister of Local Government:

1.	In respect of the councillor vacancy in Ward 6 of the Richmond TLC has an application by the TLC been lodged for deferment of the election?

2.	If an application has been lodged has the Minister approved or disapproved same?

3.	If the application has been granted what were the reasons therefor?

4.	If the application was not approved what dates have been set by the TLC for the election?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):

1.	Yes.

2.	The matter is currently receiving attention.  Legislation dictates that the Minister may approve such application only with the concurrence of the Minister of Constitutional Development.

3.	This is not applicable as the result of the application is still pending.

4.	The Transitional Local Council have requested deferment to either the date of the next general election or February 1999.  I have requested the National Minister to concur with deferment until 28 February 1999.  In terms of the Regulations concerning by-elections, the Transitional Local Council is obliged to hold the relevant by-election by no later than 28 December 1998, should their application for deferment not be successful.

QUESTION NO 120

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Premier:

Have any officials of the Department of the Premier, for disciplinary reasons, been suspended on full pay during the period:-

1.	1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997?

2.	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998?

3.	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998?

If so,	(i)	how many, and for what periods respectively?
	(ii)	how many disciplinary hearings have been finalised and after what term of suspension respectively?

THE PREMIER:

1.	Yes

2.	Yes

3.	Yes

(i)	two persons were on suspension during the periods mentioned in questions 1, 2 and 3.  One person was suspended from 2 November 1996 to 28 February 1998.  The other person was suspended with effect from 1 April 1998 and still is.

(ii)	One hearing was finalised after being conducted on 29 January 1998, after a suspension period of one year, two months and 27 days.  The officer's services were terminated on 28 February 1998.  The other case is currently on appeal.

QUESTION NO 121

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Finance:

Have any officials of the Department of Finance, for disciplinary reasons, been suspended on full pay during the period:-

1.	1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997?

2.	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998?

3.	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998?

If so,	(i)	how many, and for what periods respectively?
	(ii)	how many disciplinary hearings have been finalised and after what term of suspension respectively?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The answer to the question as printed in the Order Paper is as follows:

1.	There were no officials suspended for disciplinary reasons between the period April 1996 to March 1997.

	There was an official suspended between April 1997 to March 1998.

	There were no officials suspended between April 1998 to September 1998.

2.	(i)	One (1) from 17 March 1998 to date.

	(ii)	The disciplinary hearing has not been finalised, pending the finalisation of the criminal proceedings.  The official was suspended in order to prevent any hindrance to the police investigation.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.

MR A RAJBANSI:  A further question to the answer given, in the light of the fact that the criminal proceeding is taking some time, is the hon Minister considering amending the question of whether the suspension be continued with full pay?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Minister?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, there is the question of a full pay suspension.  The fact is that at this stage the official concerned has neither been found guilty of a criminal offence, nor yet of a misconduct in terms of the situation.  

I however take the point that under circumstances like this, one of the weaknesses in our disciplinary code is the fact that we can have an official go on holiday, effectively, for nearly a year on full pay while all this business continues.  This is the approach of the Administration of the Department of Finance.  

I do however wish to place on record that in the Department of Local Government and Housing, suspensions without pay are taking place with very good effect.  I give an undertaking to the hon member that I will request a report on this particular suspension with the view to ascertaining if any further steps should be taken.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Shall we then proceed to question No 122.  The Minister of Public Works?

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA: TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I would like to pose a question directed at you.  Is it correct to respond to questions of a member who is absent from this House?  

Secondly, for that member alone to have more than two questions and yet according to our Rules that is not acceptable.  I wanted to hear from you sir whether this is acceptable?  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: TRANSLATION:  Ndabezitha, I will begin by responding to the issue of answering questions while the member is absent from this House.  

I was still trying to explain, Ndabezitha, when I was disturbed by the one working.  Regarding the response to questions, while the member is present or absent from the House.  There is no law that operates like that.  So in other words it means that whether a member is present or not once the Minister has responded that response stands.  There can be no person who can ask what the problem is because he was absent.  

Regarding many questions from one member, in the past before leaving his position the Speaker had explained that one may find that there would be members with more questions getting responses.  Some of those questions would be left over questions, when questions were responded to earlier.  

Therefore there is no limit on those questions.  It means that they all require responses.  Some of them may have been for written reply and time expired for them, they then have to be responded to here.  All I am saying, the questions of this member were examined and it was discovered that his questions were questions that did not receive a response the last time.  T/E

I just want to give a further explanation.  The question that the member asking a question is not present, and it is in terms of the Rules, acceptable that the replies be given.

A concern was raised by the hon member that the member in question also has asked more questions than is allowed.  The explanation is that there is no Rule that stipulates that there shall be no answer when the member is not present in the House.  However, when the Minister has replied, as the Ministers have replied in this case, no member can then come back and complain that the reply was given in their absence.

The second part of the members concern was that of posing many questions.  In terms of the Rules, yes, there is a provision that a member shall not be entitled to more than two questions.  However the situation has arisen here that a member has posed questions for written reply and these questions have not been  answered.  This applies to some of these questions that one hon membe,r in particular, has asked.  There is no limit to such questions in terms of the Rules, and therefore they have been checked and in terms of what the Speaker explained.  All these answers have to be provided because these are standing over questions.  That is the situation as was previously explained by the Speaker.

The hon Minister?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture): [Mr Speaker I am saying let me assist you there.  Do not burden yourself by interpreting, because they are interpreting.  Those who do not understand have the benefit of interpretation]. 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: [Ndabezitha, I am very greatful that Mtwana assists me in that manner].

We will then proceed to question No 122.  The Minister of Public Works.

QUESTION NO 122

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Public Works:

Have any officials of the Department of Public Works, for disciplinary reasons, been suspended on full pay during the period:-

1.	1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997?

2.	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998?

3.	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998?

If so,	(i)	how many, and for what periods respectively?
	(ii)	how many disciplinary hearings have been finalised and after what term of suspension respectively?

VERBAL AND WRITTEN REPLY.

REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works):

1.	(i)	2
	(ii)	13
	(iii)	4

2.	9   -  (See attached Annexures A and B for detailed information)

ANNEXURES A AND B
	OFFICERS WHO HAVE BEEN SUSPENDED
PERIOD: 01.04.96 - 31.03.97

PERSAL NUMBER
NAME
DATE OF SUSPENSION
DISCIPLINARY HEARING AND OUTCOME
60288655
S L MATHE
02.04.97
SERVICES TERMINATED ON 01.06.97
60223553
E L MPOFU
11.02.97
DISCIPLINARY HEARING NOT YET FINALISED

PERIOD: 01.04.97 - 31.03.98

PERSAL NUMBER

NAME
DATE OF SUSPENSION
DISCIPLINARY HEARING AND OUTCOME
60292318
E K MZIMELA
10.12.97
DISCIPLINARY HEARING BEEN FINALISED - AWAITING VERDICT
60258985
W Z MZIMELA
10.12.97
DISCIPLINARY HEARING BEEN FINALISED - AWAITING VERDICT
60249595
T A MOTSOANYANE
10.12.97
DISCIPLINARY HEARING BEEN FINALISED - AWAITING VERDICT
60011891
A J SMIT
10.12.97
DISCIPLINARY HEARING BEEN FINALISED - AWAITING VERDICT
60012642
D P J BUYS
10.12.97
DISCIPLINARY HEARING BEEN FINALISED - AWAITING VERDICT
60222891
P M MBHENSE
10.12.97
DISCIPLINARY HEARING BEEN FINALISED - AWAITING VERDICT
60248556
N N MSWELI
10.12.97
DISCIPLINARY HEARING BEEN FINALISED - AWAITING VERDICT
60223006
A M ZULU
10.12.97
DISCIPLINARY HEARING BEEN FINALISED - AWAITING VERDICT
60218517
B L MNYANDU
28.10.97
DISCIPLINARY HEARING NOT YET FINALISED
19781277
G K LEWIS
28.10.97
DISCIPLINARY HEARING NOT YET FINALISED
60006102
N M LAKHRAJ
09.02.98
DISCIPLINARY HEARING NOT YET FINALISED

PERIOD: 01.04.98 - 30.09.98

PERSAL NUMBER
NAME
DATE OF SUSPENSION
DISCIPLINARY HEARING AND OUTCOME
60005009
D S SCHOFIELD
28.05.98
DISCIPLINARY HEARING NOT YET FINALISED
60223065
N M TSHABALALA
27.07.98
DISCIPLINARY HEARING NOT YET FINALISED
60223600
P M B DLOMO
27.07.98
DISCIPLINARY HEARING NOT YET FINALISED
60256249
D T ZONDO
30.06.98
DISCIPLINARY HEARING FINALISED AND SERVICES BEEN TERMINATED
MR A RAJBANSI:  A further question, Mr Speaker.  Is the hon Minister, in the light of the fact that the Province is running short of funds, prepared to recommend to Cabinet and any other relevant body, on the question of suspension with full pay over a long period of time?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Minister?

REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works):  Well, Deputy Speaker, and the House, it is not my own making, there are people who represent the members that are being suspended.  The legal advisors have advised us that we cannot suspend a member without pay.  We are bound by that.  I would like to suspend them without pay, but as a result of the legal advise that we have received could not and there is no-one who can do otherwise.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister. 

QUESTION NO 123

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Health:

1.	Are blood tests being done in KwaZulu-Natal hospitals to determine possible incidence of HIV positive cases?

2.	Are the results of the tests confidentially conveyed to the individuals concerned?

3.	At which hospitals are such tests conducted?

4.	What are the latest detailed statistics in respect of HIV positive cases with reference to women, men and babies in KwaZulu-Natal?

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):

1.	Blood tests are being done for HIV diagnosis.  This testing format does not give the prevalence of HIV positivity since there is no denominator and the level of passivity in the hospital cannot be extrapolated to the general population.

2.	Yes.  This is the instruction - the doctor requesting the test receives the report in an envelope marked "confidential" and it is his duty to inform the patient.

	a.	why he wishes the test to be done.
	b.	the results of the test.

3.	Blood tests are being done for HIV diagnosis in the following regional hospitals:

	1.	Port Shepstone
	2.	Edendale
	3.	Ladysmith
	4.	Madadeni
	5.	Vryheid
	6.	Bethesda
	7.	Ngwelezane
	8.	King Edward VIII hospitals

	Other hospitals/clinics send their specimens to these hospitals i.e. all public sector hospitals in Pietermaritzburg send their specimens to Edendale hospital laboratory.

4.	The latest statistics for HIV prevalence in KwaZulu-Natal are as follows:

	a.	The last completed antenatal survey for HIV prevalence was done in November 1997 and the figure was 27%.  The same survey is presently being conducted in the Province now (October 1998).  3 500 samples are being collected and the study will be completed by 31 October 1998.  The results will be ready before the 4th November.

	b.	There are no widespread surveys of men being undertaken although attempts have been made for 3 years to target male factory workers by means of saliva testing.

	c.	There are no province wide studies on prevalence at birth.  The reason for this is that all babies born to HIV positive mothers test positive at birth due to the presence of maternal anti-bodies and it is very expensive in money and human resources to identify those truly positive and those who will prove to be negative approximately one year after birth.  We know that approximately 30% of babies born to HIV infected mothers are themselves infected.  Therefore one can say that 1/3 of all live births are HIV positive and these babies usually survive for less than 3 to 4 years.

QUESTION NO 124

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Finance:

1.	What are the details relating to the appointment of internal Auditors for the various provincial departments?

2.	As from what dates are the appointments applicable?

3.	What are the expected costs for the present financial year?

4.	To whom do the internal Auditors report?

5.	Are there any arrangements for positive co-operation and co-ordination between the internal Auditors and the Provincial office of the Auditor-General?  If so, what are the arrangements?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, this is a very comprehensive answer and I would ask the members indulgence that I will precis what I have here, because it is two-and-a-half pages of written answer.

MR M J MTHIYANE:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker, is the member allowed to eat in the Chamber as the hon member is eating his dinner.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I may explain, I am not eating ordinary food, I am eating prasad and this is one of the highest traditional food you can ever find from a Hindu community.  This is not ordinary food, this is prasad.

MR M J MTHIYANE:  To be eaten in the House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, can I request you not to eat in the Chamber.  Shall we proceed then with question No 124.  Minister of Finance?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Thank you, if I can start again.  I indicated, Mr Speaker, that there is a very comprehensive answer and the questioner is in fact not present, so I would precis the answer and table the full written answer.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you for that, Mr Minister.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  The whole question of internal auditors is being dealt with on the basis of the appointment through the Department of Finance of a centralised internal audit arrangement, because it is not yet possible in terms of both finance and personnel to really institute separate internal audit functions in every single department.

We have made very good progress in that regard and a consortium consisting of some four international accounting firms and some nine emerging accounting firms from within our Province and from beyond our Province, have come together to form the Integrators Consortium and they are assisting us.  

We have access to some 91 professionals, add to that some 31 financial inspectors, provided by our Department.  So we can really say that we are doing everything within our resources to implement an internal audit function in our Administration.  It is however not yet on an individual department basis.

It is expected that in the present financial year it will cost our Department R9m, if the present expected costs for the financial spectorate of R5,4m is included.  It is asked to whom the internal auditors report?  They report to the accounting officers in respect of matters relating to their respective departments and to the Provincial Audit Committee.

The question of as to whether there are any arrangements for positive co-operation and co-ordination between internal auditors and the provincial office of the Auditor-General, the question is yes, in terms of the Audit Committee Charter and the terms of reference, the Auditor-General's representatives have observer status in the Internal Audit Committee meetings.  Furthermore, the Internal Draft and Audit Charter states that the relationship between the internal and external audit function, and I read it for you for ease of reference:

	The relationship between internal and external audit should take account of their different roles and responsibilities.  Internal audit is an independent appraisal function within the Province and internal auditors are direct employees.  The external auditor has a statutory responsibility to express an independent opinion on the financial statements and the stewardship of the Province.

We aim to achieve mutual recognition and respect, Mr Speaker, between the internal audit function and the external audit function.  The full reply in all its detail will be tabled and will be available in the Hansard for members.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Yes Mr Edwards.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  The hon Minister, I think has given us some reassuring news, but what is of concern - perhaps he can answer - we are looking at some R9m for a consortium, really of consultants.  Are there no steps to establish within our own staff, an internal audit function, because it surely will be more cost effective.  Perhaps there is not the capacity at the moment, perhaps the hon Minister can advise us.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, I have indicated that R5.4m of that is in fact  attributed to our financial inspectors.  Our financial inspectors are working together with the external consultants and will at the end of the process have become qualified internal auditors themselves.  There is a very important exchange of skills taking place also in this situation.  The consultants themselves are earning some 3,-something out of this, but they are here for a specific period to assist us in establishing a competent internal audit function.  That is why our financial inspectors and any additional financial inspectors which we appoint, will as part of this process, be obtaining the necessary training, in order to make them competent internal auditors.  They will then be spread across all departments.  This is a process designed to achieve exactly the end objective to which the hon member is referring.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Shall we then proceed to question No 125.  A question to be answered by the Minister of Transport.
 
WRITTEN REPLY TO QUESTION 124:

The following answers are submitted to the questions raised by the hon member:

1.	Due to the slow progress with the implementation of the internal audit function and the fact that some departments lacked the capacity to implement such a function, the Department of Finance (as the Treasury function for the Province) accepted the responsibility to implement an effective and independent internal audit function within the shortest possible time, also to give effect to resolutions taken by the Provincial Public Accounts Committee.

	Initially the intention was to implement a decentralised internal audit function with an internal audit component in each department, however, the severe budget cut-backs for the 1998/1999 financial year (+ 35% in most departments) necessitated a fresh approach to the problem as there was simply not enough funds available for this purpose.  The Department, with the approval of the Minister of Finance and Cabinet, decided to implement a centralised internal audit function, initially, with a view to decentralisation when circumstance and funds permit.

	It was decided to convert the existing Financial Inspectorate of the Department of Finance into an internal audit component which would serve all departments of the Province, especially those with no internal audit capacity.

	In order to implement an effective independent internal audit function, which would be operational within the shortest possible time, a consortium of chartered accounting firms, Integritas, was appointed during May 1998 to assist with the implementation of an internal audit function for the Province.  Good progress has since been made with the project which is conducted under the Supervision of the Director : Financial Control of this Department.

	The draft internal audit committee charter and the internal audit charter have already been finalised and a risk assessment exercise has been conducted with the top management of provincial departments and a Strategic Audit Plan has been drawn up for the three years ending 2001.

	To create immediate capacity while the internal audit function is being implemented and the prospective internal auditors are being trained, provision has been made for the Consortium to perform detailed audit work as part of the implementation exercise until full capacity has been reached.  This has facilitated immediate internal audit capacity in that the most serious risks have already been identified and are being addressed by internal audit in terms of the risk focused internal audit strategic plan.  Furthermore, the Integritas Internal Audit Consortium has 98 locally based (KwaZulu-Natal) specialists available to assist the Province, with offices situated in Durban, Pietermaritzburg, Richards Bay, Eshowe and Melmoth.

2.	The Integritas Internal Audit Consortium was appointed as from May 1998 in terms of Cabinet Resolution No. 195 dated 27 May 1998 and their services cover all departments of the Provincial Administration.

	The Financial Inspectorate is in the process of being converted into an ULU 2/13/2/1/5, by the Director-General and will serve all departments as part of the internal audit function.

3.	The expected costs for the present Financial year is R9 million if the present expected costs for the Financial Inspectorate of R5,4 million is included.

4.	To the Heads of Provincial Departments (Accounting Officers) in respect of matters relating to their respective departments and to the audit committee.

5.	Yes.  In terms of the audit committee charter and terms of reference the Auditor General's representative will have observer status in the internal audit committee meetings.  Furthermore, the draft internal audit charter paragraph 2.3.2 states the relationship between the internal and external audit function and is quoted hereunder for ease of reference:

	The relationship between internal and external audit should take account of their different roles and responsibilities.  Internal audit is an independent appraisal function within the Province and internal auditors are direct employees.  The external auditor has a statutory responsibility to express an independent opinion on the financial statements and stewardship of the Province.

	The aim should be to achieve mutual recognition and respect, leading to joint improvements in performance and the avoidance of unnecessary over-lapping of work.  External and internal audit rely on each other's work, subject to limits determined by their different responsibilities, respective strengths and special abilities.

	Consultations should be held and consideration given to whether any work of either auditor is adequate for the purpose of the other.

	Since the Internal Audit Function evaluates the Province's internal control system, the external auditor needs to be satisfied that the internal audit function is being planned and performed effectively.  This review needs to be seen by both parties as a necessary part of the working relationship.

	Regular meetings should be held between internal and external audit at which joint audit planning, priorities, scope and audit findings are discussed and information exchanged.  The benefits of joint training programmes and joint audit work should also be considered.

	Apart from the abovementioned, excellent co-operation and regular consultation exist between the Director : Financial Control, the project facilitator, and the office of the Provincial Auditor-General.

QUESTION NO 125

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Transport:

How many pedestrian fatalities have occurred on the KwaZulu-Natal sections of the N2 and N3 respectively during the periods:-

1.	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998,  and
2.	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998?

Is it legal for pedestrians to walk along or across the freeway?

If not, what steps are being taken in the interests of Road Safety to curb illegal pedestrian traffic on the freeways?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Mr Speaker, I will ask for your assistance with these questions.  One relates to the matter of a Pontius Pilate type of question and the second one is the questions that are posed for oral reply when in fact they should be for written reply.  

I will be happy to deal with the second part of my problem.  If this Legislature wants, I will go through this.  It will take about 58 minutes.  It is fine, I can continue with this - we have done our work.

The first one, though, is a Pontius Pilate type of question.  Pontius Pilate asked Jesus what is the truth and did not stay for the answer.  Mr Volker has done the same.  He is asking me a question and he has not stayed for the answer.  Should I then go through the whole process without the person being present?  The question to Jesus was what is the truth and when Jesus rose to answer, Pontius Pilate left.  The same thing has happened to me.  Mr Volker has asked the question and he has left.  He is not here.  Should I go through all this detail?

MRS C E GALEA:  Mr Speaker, I rise in protection of my colleague.  He is attending to our Pension Fund in Cape Town and it is not because he did not want to be here.  These questions were asked a long time ago, but I think we will accept the written reply.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Mr Speaker, if that is the case, he has the written reply.  He has received the written reply.  If the members present want me to go through it, it will just take me 58 minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  I await your response.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the normal procedure is that you, sir, can exercise your discretion if a reply is inordinately long, you can change it from oral to written.  I am listening to the hon Minister and he has indicated that it is a long reply.  Bearing that in mind and also having listened to what Mrs Galea said, I really believe we can make these both written replies, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Chief Whip, I am going to rule that the Minister, according to his discretion, could have done what the Minister of Finance did.  That was to summarize the reply.  The reply has been given to the member who raised the question.  That requirement, in my view, has been met.  My only problem is that the member is not here to confirm that, but we can take the hon Minister's word that that reply is now with that member.

In terms of the Rules, however, I must point out that the question only came to be on the Order Paper for oral reply because it was a standing over question.  It had not been replied to by the time the Order Paper was set up, or at least the Parliamentary staff were not aware that the matter had been replied to.  Under these circumstances, because the reply appears to be lengthy, we will consider the question as having been replied to.  We will then deal with the hon member as soon as he is back, if there are complaints, we will take them forward in the appropriate manner.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, in addition to the reply going to the member who asked the question, a copy should also go to the Secretary.  I assume that the Secretary has already got a reply which can then be included in Hansard.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I was going to add that we will request the Minister to make a copy available to each of the members present because it is now a matter for the House, but at the same time we will ensure that it appears in Hansard as well.  Thank you.  Mr Minister?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Thank you, I will be able to do that.  That refers to questions 125, 130, 136 and 137. I have copies here, I will submit them.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I think it takes care of all of those questions.

WRITTEN REPLY TO QUESTION NO 125

1.	During the period 1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998, approximately 2550 road traffic collisions occurred on the N2 and N3.  Of the recorded total, 112 vehicle-pedestrian type collisions occurred during the same period.  Statistics regarding casualties sustained to the pedestrian road user group is as follows:

		56 killed;
		19 seriously injured; and
		28 slightly injured.

2.	For the period 1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998, a total of 362 reported pedestrian crashes occurred on the N2 and N3.  Injury classifications are as follows:

		12 killed;
		6 seriously injured; and
		5 slightly injured.

	The accident Research Centre of the Department of Transport monitors all road traffic accidents which are reported to have occurred on the public roads within the Provincial Road Network.  Accident data is extracted from copies of SAP 352 Accident Report forms, which are forwarded from various police stations.  It must be noted that the data provided is incomplete due to a delay in receiving the accident reports and that the delay period in most instances is between six to eighteen months.  Also, much time is spent on the computerised checks to validate the data and duplicate checks are submitted to compare report forms in cases where each of the parties involved submitted forms to different police stations in order to reduce the error rate.

	The highest number of pedestrian accidents occurred along routes bordered by informal settlements and within urban limits, while human, vehicle and road environment factors all contributed to causing road traffic crashes.  The following may be regarded as principal causes:

		pedestrian walking, crossing or playing on the road;
		driving at an excessive speed or the road weather conditions;
		ignoring road signs/traffic signals;
		dangerous and imd driving; and
		defect vehicles.

	Section 117(2)(A) of the Road Traffic Act clearly stipulates that no person shall be on foot on a freeway except, within an area reserved for the stopping or parking of vehicles by an appropriate road traffic sign or for a cause beyond his control.

	Too many tragedies involving pedestrians occur on the freeways, resulting in death or serious injury.  To better meet the needs of motorists and pedestrians, we are concentrating our efforts to make a difference, in order to remedy the situation of pedestrians on the freeways as part of the "ASIPHEPHE" Road Safety Campaign enhanced public education on pedestrian safety and, continued law enforcement aimed at reducing road danger is continuing.  Also, increased officer presence in the designated areas has been initiated to improve the situation by restricting the use of freeways by pedestrians.

QUESTION NO 126

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Housing:

Have any officials of the Department of Housing, for disciplinary reasons, been suspended on full pay during the period:

1.	1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997?

2.	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998?

3.	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998?

If so,	(i)	how many, and for what periods respectively?

	(ii)	How many disciplinary hearings have been finalised and after what term of suspension respectively?

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):

1.	No.

2.	No.

3.	No.

	(i)	N/A
	(ii)	N/A.

QUESTION NO 127

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Local Government:

Have any officials of the Department of Local Government, for disciplinary reasons, been suspended on full pay during the period:

1.	1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997?

2.	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998?

3.	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998?

If so,	(i)	how many, and for what periods respectively?
	(ii)	How many disciplinary hearings have been finalised and after what term of suspension respectively?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):

1.	No.

2.	No.

3.	No.

	(i)	N/A
	(ii)	N/A.

QUESTION NO 128

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Agriculture:

Have any officials of the Department of Agriculture, for disciplinary reasons, been suspended on full pay during the period:

1.	1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997?

2.	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998?

3.	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998?

If so,	(i)	how many, and for what periods respectively?
	(ii)	How many disciplinary hearings have been finalised and after what term of suspension respectively?

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):

There have been NIL cases of suspension with or without pay since April 1996 to date.

QUESTION NO 129

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Premier:

In respect of the KZN Peace Initiative SAKHUXOLO MULTI-SKILLS TRAINING CENTRE Project for Lower Tugela/Maphumulo (Region 8):

Whether budgeting arrangements are in place for the ongoing operational costs of the said Multi-skills facility?

(i)	If so, from which department budget are such costs to be met and what are the estimated annual operational costs for the 1998/1999, 1999/2000 and 2000/2001 financial years respectively?

(ii)	If not, have other reliable and long term funding sources been secured.  If so, what sources and what are the budgets for the first three years of operation?

THE PREMIER:

(i)	There is no departmental budget arrangement to cater for the ongoing operational costs of the Sakhuxolo multi-skills facility.
(ii)	No, but it is envisaged that funds to run the facility will be raised by charging fees for the use of the facility from professional training bodies such as KTT (who have already supplied a letter of intent to do training) and, in the periods when no training takes place, the venue will be available for hire for private functions (e.g. weddings etc.) to derive additional revenue.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, if I may, arising out of the hon Premier's answer to the last question, ask the hon Premier that in view of the reported suspension of the Peace Initiative expenditure, and in view of the fact that there is no certainty about budgeted funds for the on-going operational costs of this particular Multi Skills Centre, which is only one of many examples, whether the plans to proceed are still on track, or whether they have also been suspended.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you.  Mr Speaker, Cabinet agreed to two IFP members of Parliament and two ANC members of Parliament, to work with the Director-General on the future of each one of these projects.  That process is continuing, we shall be getting a report from this two-by-two team, but these answers here are what was agreed to.  What I am reading here is what had been arranged, and what was agreed to, KTT had agreed to do the training, and that it would pay a certain fee for doing that training.  That it what was agreed to, with the communities, that if this Multi Skills Training Centre was not in use for training, it could be hired out for weddings or other community functions.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, further arising from the hon Premier's reply, whether the hon Premier can advise this House who those four members of this Parliament are and on what basis it was decided to appoint two members from the IFP and two members from the ANC to oversee the further expenditures of the Peace Fund.

THE PREMIER:  It was an appointment agreed to by Minister Ndebele, Minister of Transport and a Cabinet Member and myself as Premier and as a Cabinet Member.  We agreed that we will appoint two parliamentarians from each party to do this work.  Thank you.

HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE PREMIER:  They are not in the Cabinet, unfortunately.

QUESTION NO 130

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Transport:

Have any officials of the Department of Transport, for disciplinary reasons, been suspended on full pay during the period:

1.	1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997?

2.	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998?

3.	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998?

If so,	(i)	how many, and for what periods respectively?
		(ii)	How many disciplinary hearings have been finalised and after what term of suspension respectively?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  (WRITTEN REPLY)











	SEE ANNEXURES C AND D

	ON PAGES 321 & 322





QUESTION NO 131

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Health:

Have any officials of the Department of Health, for disciplinary reasons, been suspended on full pay during the period:

1.	1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997?

2.	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998?

3.	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998?

If so,	(i)	how many, and for what periods respectively?
	(ii)	How many disciplinary hearings have been finalised and after what term of suspension respectively?

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):

1.	Yes 14 officials - 9 finalised

2.	Yes 52 officials - 39 finalised.

3.	None

	(i)	14 officials : 1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997

	DATE OF SUSPENSION
	UPLIFTED
	OUTCOME
6 March 1996
7 July 1997
Transfer
13 November 1996
28 May 1997
Withdrawn - insufficient evidence
13 November 1996
Resigned
with effect from 
30-06-97
22 November 1996
29 April 1997
Deceased
25 October 1996
28 May 1997
Counselled
17 February 1997
21 November 1997
Found not guilty
20 February 1997
13 October 1997
Found not guilty
27 September 1996
3 September 1997
Termination
18 March 1997
13 November 1997
Termination
24 October 1996
11 November 1997
Withdrawn - insufficient evidence
2 X 27 February 1997

Awaiting civil case - with Special Investigation
9 July 1997
31 October 1997
Services terminated
28 November 1996
31 May 1998
Services terminated

	52 officials : 1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998

	DATE OF SUSPENSION
	UPLIFTED
	OUTCOME
19 x 13 November 1997
19 November 1997
Withdrawn - insufficient evidence
10 x 21 May 1997

Enquiry in progress
18 July 1997
13 October 1997
Awaiting criminal case
8 x 3 June 1997
24 September 1997
Warning
6 x 3 June 1997
24 September 1997
Warning
2 March 1998
27 September 1998
Under investigation
2 x 23 November 1997
12 October 1998
Not guilty
30 July 1997
30 July 1997
Services terminated
6 March 1998
20 July 1998
Charges being formulated
25 March 1998
29 May 1998
Transferred
7 August 1997
15 April 1998
Transferred
25 August 1997
30 October 1998
Termination

	1 April 1998 - 30 September 1998

	There have been no suspensions with emoluments during this period as a ruling was made by this Department that should it be deemed necessary to suspend it would be implemented without emoluments.

QUESTION NO 132

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Traditional Affairs:

Have any officials of the Department of Traditional Affairs, for disciplinary reasons, been suspended on full pay during the period:

1.	1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997?

2.	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998?

3.	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998?

If so,	(i)	how many, and for what periods respectively?
	(ii)	How many disciplinary hearings have been finalised and after what term of suspension respectively?



~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional & Environmental Affairs & Safety & Security):

1.	Mr S C Mlotshwa:	Suspended - 4/9/97
					Returned to duty - 12/10/98

	Mrs D B Zwane:		Suspended - 1/9/98 to date

	Mrs C N Dube:		Suspended - 1/9/98 to date

2.	None held.  Mr S C Mlotshwa - Mr Mlotshwa's alleged misdemeanours were committed in the Department of Transport.

It is trusted that the above information will suffice.

QUESTION NO 133

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Safety and Security:

Have any officials of the Department of Safety and Security, for disciplinary reasons, been suspended on full pay during the period:

1.	1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997?

2.	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998?

3.	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998?

If so,	(i)	how many, and for what periods respectively?
	(ii)	How many disciplinary hearings have been finalised and after what term of suspension respectively?

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional & Environmental Affairs & Safety & Security):

1.	Suspensions of members on full pay for the following periods as requested by your office:

	1.1	1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997	=   64
	1.2	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998	=  105
	1.3	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998	=   26

2.	Disciplinary hearings that have been finalised for the following periods as requested by your office:

	2.1	1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997	=   21
	2.2	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998	=   18
	2.3	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998	=    7

QUESTION NO 134

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Welfare and Pensions:

Have any officials of the Department of Welfare and Pensions, for disciplinary reasons, been suspended on full pay during the period:

1.	1 April 1996 to  1 March 1997?

2.	1 April 1997  31 March 1998?

3.	1 April 1998  30 September 1998?

If so,	(i)	how many, and for what periods respectively?
	(ii)	How many disciplinary hearings have been finalised and after what term of suspension respectively?

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):

1.	Yes.

2.	Yes

3.	Yes

	(i)	10 Officials in 1996, 1997 and 1998.
	(ii)	No disciplinary hearings have been finalised.

QUESTION NO 135

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Asks the Premier:

Was a faxed authorisation for the payment of approximately R71 000 to the organisers of a conference in September 1997 and sponsored by the now defunct African Library Association, issued by the office of the Premier?

If so,:-

(i)	was original financial documentation presented prior to payment being authorised?

(ii)	were you as Premier, personally aware of the authorisation issued by your office?

(iii)	were any KZN officials incarcerated at the conference pending receipt of payment of the R71 000 cost of their participation?

Does the Premier wish to make any further statement relating to the said participation of KZN officials in the said conference?

THE PREMIER:

The office of the Premier never faxed any authorisation for the payment of approximately R71 000 to the organisers of ALASA.

(i)	Yes.

(ii)	No.

(iii)	I have no knowledge of any incarceration.

Although I must report that Dr Ltter said there had been an incarceration when he addressed a Press conference and that it was the reason why they had phoned an official in the Premier's office to authorise, or to get permission to pay.  

	Rule K (9) mandates that payments be made only after delivery of a service, but when it comes to hiring a venue for a public function, it is quite clear that K (9) cannot be in operation, because venues are booked and paid for in advance.

I have been informed by the Director-General, Prof O E H M Nxumalo that the participation of teachers, inspectors and parents was most beneficial to the SGTU and Culture of Learning Programme (COLT).

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, arising from the hon Premier's reply to question 135.  I have not discovered from the Premier's reply whether payment was actually authorised by the Premier's Department and how it was actually paid from his budget.  Does the hon Premier consider this to be fruitful expenditure or were they merely helping someone out who had got into a spot of trouble, and it appears to me that is the situation, that it was not really fruitful expenditure.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, the Premier's Department had nothing to do with the payment other than the fact that some people involved in the Culture of Learning asked for advice and recommendations.  As far as I know, it was Treasury actually, who did that, and not even the Premier's office.  But do not forget that at the time I was in charge of both Finance and the Premier's office.  It was not our function, we were merely apprised of the situation where some people were having problems.  I was never even contacted about this.  It was an official who discussed it with the people involved.  I do not even know those people, but from what Dr Ltter has said, they had agreed that ALASA should have the conference.  Then, because the conference owners wanted payment, they then put them under pressure, there was the Rule K(9) issue which they had to find a dispensation for, but as far as I know, this money came from the Culture of Learning and not from the Premier's office.  We neither approved the conference, nor funded the conference.

QUESTION NO 136

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Transport:

1.	How many truck drivers/owners have been charged during the period from:-

	1.	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998.  (See Annexure "A")
	2.	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998. (See Annexure "B")

2.	With overloading while travelling on:-

	a.	The N3?
	b.	The N2?
	c.	Other roads of the Province?

What firms have been charged more than three times per abovementioned period and how many times have each of the aforesaid been charged?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):

1.	7304 drivers have been charged during this period.

2.	8911 charges were laid.

3.	Kindly refer to the attached CSIR Annexures D E.





	SEE ANNEXURES "A" & "B" ON PAGES 331 AND 332


	SEE APPENDIX "B" ON PAGES 333 TO 339


	SEE SCHEDULES W1 - W6 ON PAGES 340 TO 345


	SEE REPORT CR-98/031 ON PAGES 346 TO 347 



	APPENDIX B

	KWAZULU-NATAL
	HEAVY VEHICLE
	WEIGHING STATISTICS
	ANNUAL 1997

	--- oooOooo ---

	Report No. CR-98/031

	SOUTH AFRICAN HEAVY
	VEHICLE WEIGHING
	STATISTICS
	ANNUAL REPORT 1997


1.	INTRODUCTION

	Research in South Africa and the USA has shown that damage to the road by axle loads which exceed the legal limit increases out of all proportion to the loads: for example, an axle carrying double the legal load may cause from 4 to 60 times as much damage as an axle carrying its legal permissible load, depending on the type of road.

	It is estimated that 35 per cent (15 per cent in KwaZulu-Natal) of all heavy vehicles travelling on South African roads are overloaded.  In KwaZulu-Natal, weigh-in-motion stations indicate that 15 percent of heavy vehicles are overloaded.  Furthermore, it has been found that, while all legally loaded heavy vehicles cause some damage to road pavements, overloaded heavy vehicles are responsible for approximately 60 per cent of the damage to the road network, representing some R600 to R700 million per annum.

	Because of the fact that limited funds are available for the construction of new roads and for road maintenance, it is essential that effective enforcement of the axle load regulations be carried out throughout South Africa in order to protect the country's most valuable asset - its road network.  Moreover, inadequate law enforcement on vehicles overloading allows some transport operators to deliberately grossly overload their vehicles and thus results in unfair competition for law-abiding operators.  The fines currently imposed by the courts on those convicted of vehicle overloading are, in most case, negligible by comparison with the cost of the damage caused to the roads and are quite clearly ineffective in discouraging overloading.  As a consequence, enforcement of the axle load regulations, which also suffers as a result of logistical problems, is not nearly as vigorously pursued as would seem desirable if overloading is to be controlled effectively.

	During 1997, 89 864 heavy vehicles were weighed in South Africa, 35 per cent of which were overloaded.  Furthermore, 19 per cent of the vehicles weighed were charged.  In this report the term charged refers to vehicles that were overloaded by more than the 5 per cent tolerance allowed on axles, axle units, the gross combination mass (GCM) and the bridge formula.

	This report presents important statistics concerning vehicle weighing in South Africa, both nationally and provincially.  Companies that had more than 15 vehicles weighed nationally were used as a basis for determining the worst offenders in terms of the average percentage of vehicles loaded to above the legal limits and of the percentage of vehicles charged.  A similar process was used at provincial level.

	The average overload for single axle units with a permissible mass of 9 000 kg was 1 406 kg.  The average overload of tandem axle units was 1 367 kg and that of tridem axle units was 1 444 kg.  The number of vehicles overloaded according to Regulation 365A (bridge formula) was 1 046, with an average overload of 5 702 kg and the number of vehicles overloaded according to Regulation 362D (GCM) was 14 598, with an average overload of 2 761 kg.

	From in international perspective, developed countries, such as those in Europe and North America, have substantial weighing programmes in order to protect their road infrastructure.  For example, the Department of Transportation in the State of Virginia, USA, weights approximately one million heavy vehicles each month.  During 1994, 12 427 000 vehicles were weighed, of which 0,6 per cent were charged for overloading.
2.	ANALYSIS OF NATIONAL WEIGHING STATISTICS

2.1	Weighing Statistics

	During 1997, 89 864 vehicles were weighed in South Africa, compared with 58 904 vehicles weighed in 1996.  This represents a 52 percent increase in vehicle weighing.  The main reason for this significant increase was the opening of the Mantsole Traffic Control Centre in the Northern Province on the N1 North of Pretoria.  During 1997, 35 per cent of vehicles were found to be overloaded compared to 33 per cent in 1996.  The number of vehicles charged in 1997 decreased by 4 per cent compared to the 1996 figures, from 23 percent to 19 per cent.  These figures are reflected in Tables 1 and 2.  Table 3 indicates weighing statistics for 1995.

Table 1: 	South African Heavy Vehicle Overloading Statistics - 1997
Province
Vehicles weighed
Vehicles overloaded
Percentage overloaded
Vehicles charged
Percentage charged
All provinces

89 864
31 022
35
16 948
19
KwaZulu-Natal
46 071
13 785
30
8911
19
Northern Province
38 318
13 505
35
4 964
13
North West Province
203
179
88
172
85
Gauteng
357
296
83
277
78
Western Cape
1 542
977
63
690
45
Free State
2 377
1 673
70
1 480
62
Northern Cape
151
108
72
82
54
Eastern Cape
544
382
70
280
52
Mpumalanga
301
117
39
92
31

Table 2: 	South African Heavy Vehicle Overloading Statistics - 1996
Province
Vehicles weighed
Vehicles overloaded
Percentage overloaded
Vehicles charged
Percentage charged
All provinces

58 904
19 342
33
13 840
23
KwaZulu-Natal
50 969
14 295
28
9 192
18
Northern Province
 2 286
 1 093
48
  638
28
North West Province
369
191
52
179
49
Gauteng*
329
299
91
280
85
Western Cape
1 483
987
67
767
52
Free State
  426
  283
66
  224
53
Northern Cape
261
167
64
120
46
Eastern Cape**
394
319
81
227
58
Mpumalanga
2 387
1 684
71
1 473
62

Notes:	*	Centurion Town Council
	**	Port Elizabeth Municipality


	Number of vehicles weighed per province during 1997

KwaZulu-Natal
46,071
Mpumalanga
301
Eastern Cape
544
Northern Cape
151
Free State
2,377
Western Cape
1,542
Gauteng
357
North West Province
203
Northern Province
38,318




	Number of vehicles weighed per province during 1996

KwaZulu-Natal
50,969
Mpumalanga
2,387
Eastern Cape
394
Northern Cape
261
Free State
426
Western Cape
1,483
Gauteng
329
North West Province
369
Northern Province
2,285

	KWAZULU-NATAL DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT

Weighing Statistics	All Weighbridges	Annual Report 1997

	

a) All Vehicles

Number of vehicles weighed		46071
Number of vehicles overloaded		13785	30 %
Number of vehicles charged		 8911	19 %

b) Regulation 365 - Axle Loading

Number of vehicles overloaded		11854	26 %
Average Mass Overloaded			 1475 kg
Average Chargeable Overload		 1907 kg	8489 vehicles
Maximum Overload			24540 kg
Max. % Overload				167 %

c) Regulation 365A - Bridge Loading

Number of vehicles measured		  883
Number of vehicles overloaded		  438	 1 %
Average Mass Overloaded			 4026 kg	 5 %
Average Chargeable Overload		 4304 kg	402 vehicles
Maximum Overload			30300 kg
Max. % Overload				 68 %

d) Regulation 362D - Maximum G.C.M.

Number of vehicles limited to 56 ton	  9748
Number of vehicles overloaded		  6167	13 %
Average Mass Overloaded			 2731 kg	 5 %
Average Chargeable Overload		 3799 kg	3466 vehicles
Maximum Overload			36240 kg
Max. % Overload				 65 %


e) Maximum Gross Combination Masses

2 axle-unit vehicle			46960 kg
3 axle-unit vehicle			63020 kg
4 axle-unit vehicle			92240 kg
5 axle-unit vehicle			74200 kg








DOCUMENT RETRIEVAL PAGE	Report No: CR-98/031
Title:		South African Heavy Vehicle Weighing Statistics - Annual Report 1997
Authors:	I Sallie and P Nordengen
Date:		June 1998
Abstract:

The South African Heavy Vehicle Weighing Statistics - 1997 Annual Report is the third in a series of annual reports on national overloading statistics compiled by the CSIR.

During 1997, 89 864 heavy vehicles were weighed in South Africa, 35 per cent of which were overloaded and 19 per cent of which were charged.  In this report the term charged refers to vehicles that were overloaded by more than the 5 per cent tolerance allowed on axles, axle units, the gross combination mass (GCM) and the bridge formula.

This report presents important statistics concerning vehicle weighing in South Africa, both nationally and provincially.  Companies that had more than 15 vehicles weighed nationally during 1997 were used as a basis for determining the worst offenders in terms of average overload, percentage of vehicles over the legal limits and percentage of vehicles charged.  A similar process was used at provincial level.

During 1997, 89 864 vehicles were weighed, compared with 58 904 vehicles weighed during 1996, representing a 52 per cent increase.  35 per cent of vehicles were found to be overloaded, compared with 33 per cent in 1996.  The number of vehicles charged decreased from 23 percent in 1996 to 19 per cent in 1997.



The average overload for single axle units with a permissible mass of 9 000 kg was 1 406 kg.  Furthermore, the average overload of tandem axle units was 1 367 kg and that of tridem axle units was 1 444 kg.  The number of vehicles overloaded according to Regulation 365A (bridge formula) was 1 046, with an average overload of 5 702 kg and the number of vehicles overloaded according to Regulation 362D (GCM) was 14 598, with an average overload of 2 761 kg.
Keywords:	Heavy vehicles, overloading, axles, bridge formula overloading statistics.


QUESTION NO 137

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Transport:

Have any road collisions between vehicles and cattle or other animals been reported on any of the roads in KwaZulu-Natal?

If so:-

1.	How many such collisions were reported respectively for the periods 1997/8 and from 1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998?

2.	How many fatalities occurred?

3.	How many such collisions occurred on either the N2 or the N3?

	(a)	Where?
	(b)	Were the verge fences alongside the freeway intact?

4.	On which other roads were other collisions respectively reported?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):

1.	The total accidents reported for the period 1997-04-01 to 1998-03-31 were 12 432, of which 1003 were animal related, with one being fatal.  For the same period on the N2 and N3, the total accidents were 2960 of which 146 were animal related, with no fatalities.  For the period 1998-04-01 to 1998-10-23 there have been 2004 accidents, of which 198 were animal related for the Province, with no fatalities to date.

2.	One fatality has been reported.

3.	2960 accidents occurred of which 146 were animal related.

	(a)	Exact localities cannot be supplied at this stage.

	(b)	At this stage, this cannot be confirmed due to lack of information.

4.	No information exists as yet as to on which roads were the collisions respectively reported.

QUESTION NO 138

MR R M BURROWS:  Asks the Minister of Social Welfare:

1.	With regard to:
		Old age pensions
		Disability pensions
		Maintenance grants
		Unclaimed benefits

	What is the backlog, if any, in these categories in each region in the Province;
	What processes are in place to address these backlogs.

2.	In which regions has the re-registration processing of pensioners begun; when was it begun and how long is the process expected to take before finalisation in each region in the Province?

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):

1.	There is still a backlog in each region in this Province with regard to all grant types.  The information requested, as at 30 September 1998, is as follows:

	NUMBER OF CASES PER REGION
GRANT TYPE
~ULUNDI~
DURBAN
PM BURG
TOTAL
Grants for the Aged
635
783
1 183
2 601
Grants for the disabled
1 190
2 947
4 882
9 019
Maintenance Grants
81
28
45
154
Unclaimed benefits
0
0
3 388
3 888

	The numbers in the above table related to new applications only.  That is, applications which have to be processed and entered into the pensions system.  In addition to these, there are still files in the regional offices which relate to reviews undertaken, which still need to be processed.  However, the majority of these people are in receipt of their grants, and have routinely been reviewed.  The numbers of people being reviewed have decreased considerably, as all pensioners will have to be reviewed with the re-registration programme.

	The numbers above also reflect the total number of files at the regional offices which include current work.  It must be understood that any file not older than 35 days from date of application is regarded as current.  The regions have been requested to separate their statistics in respect of these categories, so that a truer picture of the backlog can be obtained.

	Processes which are being put in place to address the backlog including the capturing of these applications.  Priority is presently being given to the backlog of maintenance grant cases, as a directive received from the National Minister of Welfare has set 30 October 1998 as the cut-off date for the processing of any "new" maintenance cases.  After this date, the numbers on the system should remain relatively constant, with an annual reduction in the amount being paid for this grant type, in accordance with the decision to phase out maintenance grants over a period of 3 years, starting from April 1998.

	The numbers of unprocessed claims for unclaimed benefits should also reduce, as this function on the pensions system is now operational.  The backlog accumulated as a result of this Department's inability to process any claims of this nature, as the function was not operating effectively.

2.	The re-registration programme began in Umlazi on 12 October 1998, as a pilot site.  As from Monday 26 October 1998, temporary contract staff are being trained in each of the 3 regions for this Department.  These teams will be in the field as from Monday 2 November 1998.  This means that all 3 regions will then have staff actually doing the reviews for re-registration from this date.  The balance of the temporary staff for the field work will commence training on Monday 9 November 1998 in all the regions.  By mid-November 1998, the full complement of field workers will be in place in the Province.  The field work is expected to be completed early in April 1999.

	Arrangements are currently under way to train the data processing staff.  A site for a data processing centre for re-registration has been obtained, and the computer network is currently being installed.  The data processing staff will be in place and operational during November 1998.  This part of the re-registration project should be completed during the latter part of 1999.

	With the files already completed from Umlazi, the fingerprint cards have been sent to the Department of Home Affairs in Pretoria for verification.  The first lot of verified prints are expected back by Friday 30 October 1998.  These files will then be processed, and the re-registration confirmed.

	Re-registration will take place in all 3 regions simultaneously.  The completion dates given above are for the total Province.

QUESTION NO 139

MR V A VOLKER:  Asks the Minister of Education:

Have any officials of the Department of Education, for disciplinary reasons, been suspended on full pay during the period:

1.	1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997?

2.	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998?

3.	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998?

If so,	(i)	how many, and for what periods respectively?
	(ii)	How many disciplinary hearings have been finalised and after what term of suspension respectively?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

1.	Suspension of members on full pay for the following periods as requested by your office:

	1.1	1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997	=  4
	1.2	1 April 1997 to 31 March 1998	=  2
	1.3	1 April 1998 to 30 September 1998	=  5
	TOTAL	= 11

2.	Disciplinary hearings that have been finalised for the following periods as requested by your office:

	4	-	two months
	1	-	six months
	1	-	eight months


QUESTION NO 140

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Minister of Education:

In respect of the R80m for Peace Education:

Whether the Minister considers general instruction on civic responsibility, intercultural tolerance, political tolerance, basic concepts of democracy and freedom of though and opinion, as well as self discipline, to form part of the school curriculum.

If so:

1.	How is this incorporated in the curriculum?

2.	Whether the Minister sees a need for a "Peace Education Curriculum" outside the school curriculum and if so whom should be targeted by such an extra-school project?

3.	Whether the Minister has applied for all of, or a portion of, the R80 million allocated to "Peace Education" to be given to his Department to bolster the abovementioned general instruction programme in the school curriculum?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

Yes.

1.	In the new Curriculum, there are eight learning areas which constitute the General Education and Training Band.  All learners in this band are expected to learn and through them acquire the requisite skills, knowledge and attitudes to realise the desired outcomes.

	The aim of this learning area Life Organisation is to empower learners to live meaningful lives in society that are based on democratic practice.  This learning area is central to the holistic unfolding of learners, and also promoting, inculcating the democratic values based on a human rights culture.

	As expected to be taught from Grade five upwards in our schools, Life Orientation this learning area is bound to enhance the practice of positive values, attitudes, behaviour and skills in the individual and the community in which would live.  A Management Plan for the use of such funds if granted, will have to be drawn by the Provincial Curriculum Unit.

2.	Yes there is a need for "Peace Education Curriculum", especially during this time in our country where peace is not a common state of affairs.

3.	The Minister did not apply for a portion of the R80 million fund.  This money has never been intended for The Department of Education.  It was meant for the Department of the Premier and to be utilised in that Department.  The Peace Education is not the "formal/class" Education but a general campaign to educate people about peace.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I now wish to go on to question No 141.  The Minister of Education again?

QUESTION NO 141

MR R M BURROWS:  Asks the Minister of Education and Culture:

Whether his Department is funding any schools functioning in that part of the Dukuduku National Forest Reserve which lies south of the Mtubatuba/St Lucia road, and if so:

1.	When these schools were established and on whose request and whose authorisation?

2.	How many schools have been so established and how many teachers allocated?

3.	What the names of these schools and their respective enrolments are:  if not

4.	Who is managing and funding these schools;  and

5.	Whether the Minister is satisfied with the current arrangements?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

1.	FUNDING OF SCHOOLS: MTUBATUBA/ST LUCIA AREA

	1.1	NAME OF SCHOOLS

		(i)	Khiphinkunzi Primary School
		(ii)	Nkombane Primary School
		(iii)	Mzabalazo Primary School
		(iv)	KwaNyamazane Primary School
		(v)	Vezobala Secondary School.

	1.2	All schools were registered in October 1995 to start functioning with effect from 01/01/1996.

		The applicant was ~Inkosi~ M M Mkhwanazi (on behalf of the community).





NAME OF SCHOOL
GRADES
ENROLMENT
NO. OF ED.
SEC. EDU.

Khiphinkunzi
1-7
374
3
1

Nkombane
1-7
242
3
1

Mzabalazo
1-7
263
3
1

KwaNyamazane
1-7
309
2
3

Vezobala
1-7
244
4
1

3.	MANAGEMENT AND FUNDING OF SCHOOLS

	-	All schools are managed by principals and school governing bodies.

	-	They are also funded by parents and KZN Provincial government i.e. educators salaries, books and stationery.

4.	The Minister is satisfied with the current arrangements.

QUESTION NO 142

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Minister of Traditional Affairs:

1.	Whether he can provide an estimate of the number of people currently residing in that portion of Dukuduku State Forest which lies to the South of Mtubatuba - St Lucia road and whether he can provide similar estimates as at January 1998, January 1997, January 1996 and January 1995?

2.	Whether it is his intention to take steps to save the Dukuduku coastal sand forest from total destruction and if so what steps?



~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional &  Environmental Affairs & Safety & Security):

1.	By 1990, there were families representing 2 300 people, and by 1992 there were approximately 10 000 people living in the forest.

	Since then these figures have increased exponentially, and it is not certain as to the present number of residents in the forest.

2.	The following solutions to the problems have been proposed:

	(i)	There be voluntary relocation of people from the eastern third of the forest where it abuts the boundaries of the St Lucia Game Reserve, to two-thirds of the forest on the west and up to the Monzi Road.   This was in accordance with the Dukuduku Structure Plan.  The vacated land would be rehabilitated and developed as an integrated nature conservation/ecotourism resource in a joint venture with the community.

	(ii)	The integrity of the Mpathe catchment ecosystem be secured from the Futululu forest to the Western Shores of Lake St Lucia.

	(iii)	Agricultural land be purchased by the state to sustain agricultural activities, since the land in the forest is of poor quality and unsuitable for agriculture in the long term.

	(iv)	Ecotourism developments with participation/equity of the nature conservation authority, community and donors/financiers/developers be pursued, both in the southern forest and northern forest.

	In conclusion, my staff in the Service and Department are serving on a task team to pursue the above solution, and I shall do everything in my power to see this matter settled.

QUESTION NO 143

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism:

In respect of the KZN Rehabilitation Trust Fund for business destroyed in political violence, whether the Minister can advise:

1.	When this concept was first mooted.

2.	When his Department first gave indications to any persons whose businesses had been so affected or their representatives, that financial mechanisms would be made available to assist them in rehabilitating their businesses;  and

3.	When he expects the first concrete assistance in terms of the Rehabilitation Trust Fund to be given to a qualifying recipient.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):

1.	At the Premier's Economic Workshop held in November 1994, it was agreed that a workshop should be held within the Province to urgently address the needs of the Small Business Sector in the Province.  As a result of a Cabinet resolution No. 351 of 14 December 1994, the responsibility of organising this workshop was given to the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism and the KwaZulu-Natal Regional Economic Forum (KZN Economic Council).

	As a result of this direction, a Planning Committee for the Workshop was established in March 1995, and after extensive consultation with SMME stakeholders a SMME workshop was convened and attended by over 400 delegates on 11 and 12 October 1995.

	A number of recommendations emerged from the workshop, and a program of action for SMME development for the Province was prepared.  This program of action was discussed and supported at the Premier's Provincial Economic and Development Summit held on the 11 and 12 April 1996.

	As per Cabinet Resolution No. 253, a meeting was held between representatives of the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism and the Department of Local Government and Housing where it was agreed that the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism submit a resolution for the establishment of a Rehabilitation Trust Fund, to assist businesses devastated by violence.

2.	No specific dates were given to the beneficiaries for the implementation due to the administrative procedures that are needed to be adhered to prior to the date being made public.  However, various newspaper articles covered the broad principles of the Rehabilitation Trust Fund.

3.	This is difficult to state due to the following reasons:

	The Draft Bill was published in the KwaZulu-Natal Gazette on the 17 September 1998.  The closing date for submissions was 08 October 1998.  Hearings were held on 18 November 1998 in Pietermaritzburg, Empangeni, Ladysmith and Port Shepstone.  The Economic Affairs and Tourism Portfolio Committee decided these venues.  Amendments to the Bill are being made and it will be tabled in Parliament on 15 December 1998.  I hope it is going to be enacted.

	It was my intention to ensure that the implementation of the Trust Fund starts from January 1999, but this will depend on how long it takes to finalise the Bill into an Act.

QUESTION NO 144

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Minister of Finance:

In respect of "Phase 2" of the KwaZulu-Natal Peace Initiative for which "Provisional Budget Schedule" has been furnished to the Minister.

Whether such budget is included in the Provincial budget of KwaZulu-Natal and if so:

1.	Whether the Tender Board gave relaxation of Tender Board regulations for purposes of awarding inter alia contracts for proposals for Peace Education curricula and which the conditions of such relaxation are;  if not

2.	Whether the Director General and/or the Tender Board had authority to authorise and/or delegate the authority to authorise a multi-million rand contract for curriculum development for Peace Education and under what conditions.

3.	Whether the Minister will make a statement on this issue.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):

The amount for "Phase 2" of the KwaZulu-Natal Peace Initiative is not included in the Budget of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  Therefore 1 and 2 fall away.

1.	Yes.

QUESTION NO 145

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Premier:

In respect of the R10 million portion of the 100 million RDP KZN Peace Initiative which has been invested, and if so:

1.	a.	When it was invested, with which institution it was placed and what the nature of the investment is;

	b.	How much was invested, and what is the current value thereof;

	c.	Whether any commissions were payable to agents in respect of the investment and who was the investment advisor;

	d.	When it is intended to spend the money and for what purpose.

2.	Whether the Premier can furnish further details on this matter.

THE PREMIER:

1.	(a)	The amount of R10m was invested with the Old Mutual Assurance Company in 1997.  It is a 10 year flexi-dowment plan.

	(b)	A sum of R10m was invested.  The current value is estimated at not less than R11,5m.

	(c)	It is not known whether any commission was paid to the agents of the Old Mutual Company.  Mr Andreas Ndlovu was the investment supervisor.

	(d)	The money will be spent as soon as Cabinet approves of the drafted policy recommendations of selecting winners of the Premier's Peace Award.

2.	These recommendations will be ready for consideration by Cabinet immediately after recess.

QUESTION NO 146

MR R M BURROWS:  Asks the Premier:

In respect of the eleven proposals received for development of curricula for Peace Education whether the Premier can:

a.	disclose the quoted amounts for each of the eleven proposals;

b.	make available the documentation tabled by each of the eleven proposers; and

c.	advise what progress the successful proposer has made to date (25 October 1998), what the total value of the consulting contract is and how much they are entitled to claim for work completed up to 25 October 1998.

THE PREMIER:

	SOME COMMENTS ON THE KZN PEACE INITIATIVES PHASE II
	1998/99 BUSINESS PLAN

INTRODUCTION

In connection with the aspect of the question which requires me to comment on the KZN Peace Initiatives Phase II.

May I quote from the KZN Peace Initiatives Phase II Business Plan 1998/99, signed by the following:-

	The Premier	:	Dr B S Ngubane
	Leader of largest 
	     Minority Party	:	Mr J G Zuma
	Director-General	:	Prof O E H M Nxumalo

It is the purpose of this business plan to access the R100m allocated to the KwaZulu-Natal Peace Initiative for the 1998/99 financial year.  This amount which is the second allocation for the Peace Initiative, will be used to strengthen and supplement those activities to be undertaken with the 1996/97 allocation, especially with respect to the cultivation of suitable skills to restore peace and stability, to capacity building, to manage conflict and successfully lay foundations for progress and prosperity.

PROJECT MANAGEMENT

The total project will be managed and co-ordinated by the Project Management Structure established in the office of the provincial Director-General as part of the 1996/97 RDP allocation.  This structure will be in place for three (3) years, which is the expected period of implementation of both the 1996/97 and 1998/99 allocations.  An amount of R4.5m of the 1998/99 allocation will be directed towards the maintenance and expansion of this structure.  This means that the total amount of R8m will be utilised for this purpose.  All staff are appointed on contract.

PROJECT DESCRIPTION

The Programme is intended to launch well co-ordinated projects throughout the Province with a view to establishing Peace Education Projects in the Province.  The curriculum of such projects will include, among other things, modules on human rights and conflict resolution skills.  These projects will target school children, out of school youth students, and communities at large.  Schools, tertiary education institutions, church organisations, NGO's and CBO's will serve as delivery mechanisms.

	NAMES AND ORGANISATIONS THAT WERE SHORTLISTED
	 AND MADE PRESENTATIONS FOR CONSIDERATION
	ON PHASE II AND THEIR PROPOSED BUDGET

	ORGANISATIONS
	PROPOSED BUDGET
 1.	Southern Natal Childrens' Rights Committee
R	2 275 965,00
 2.	Interact, Human Resources Consultants
R	161 000,00
 3.	Institute for a Democratic South Africa (IDASA)
R	410 000,00
 4.	KwaZulu-Natal Peace Initiative (KZNPI)
R	999 449,13
 5.	6 Member Consortium led by Institute for Multi Party Democracy
R	9 925 410,00
 6.	Community Conflict Management & Resolution (CCMR)
R	97 000,00
 7.	N Ngwane & Associates
	Not given
 8.	B W Khuzwayo & Associates
R	242 100,00
 9.	Amandla Group
	Not given
10.	Madadeni Development Forum
	Not given
11.	Magabheni Young Movement
R	3 659 000,00

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, if I could just, arising out of the reply to question 146 ask whether the documentation on these quotes is available, and in respect of Section (c) of that question, what progress has been made with implementation by the successful tenderers.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, I am quite certain that this documentation that I am presenting here belongs to Parliament.  So it is available.  As far as progress, we have again halted any further development of this programme, pending recommendations from the parliamentarians who have been appointed by the Minister of Transport and myself.  However, I must also add that this amount has not yet been transferred to the Province. 

Sorry, I have completed my questions for oral reply Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you. 

QUESTION NO 147

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Premier:

In respect of the "KwaZulu-Natal Peace Initiative Phase II budgeted in terms of a schedule provided by the Director General (a copy of which has been furnished herewith) under cover of a letter addressed to the Public Accounts Committee dated 1 October 1998 whether the Premier can advise:

1.	Under which budget vote and programme this R100 million has been included.

2.	Whether these budgeted funds are different to the R80 million budget for KwaZulu-Natal Peace Education under the vote of the National Minister of Education for the 1998/99 financial year.

3.	Under what authority the total amount of R804481 reflected as spent between 1 April 1998 and 31 August 1998 under Phase II has been spent.

4.	Whether the Premier will make a full statement about "Phase II" of the Peace Initiative.

THE PREMIER:

1.	This amount for 100m earmarked for the KwaZulu-Natal Peace Initiative Phase II has not been transferred to the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

2.	This matter has been referred to the State Expenditure.  A resolution is awaited from the National Treasury.

3.	It was given by the Head : Programme Management Services, Mr Neil Devereaux Nel, through Dr Johan Olivier who serves on the MANCO of the Peace Initiatives Project.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Shall we then proceed with question 148.  The Minister of Agriculture.

QUESTION NO 148
 
MR J C N WAUGH:  Asks the Minister of Agriculture:

Is the Department of Agriculture still delivering ploughing and dipping facilities to the people of KwaZulu-Natal?  If so,

a.	How many staff are employed in these sectors of the Department, and if not,

b.	How many staff were employed, and how many staff members are still employed in these sectors?

c.	How many tractors are still in the hands of the Department, and what are these tractors doing at the moment?

d.	Is consideration being given to selling these tractors and equipment, and, if so, is consideration being given to selling them to the tractor operators?

e.	Would the Minister consider making a statement in this regard?

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture & Housing):  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  I see the hon member Mr Waugh is not in the Chamber.  I hope he is not involved in war talk outside.  [LAUGHTER]

Secondly, Mr Speaker, if one looks at the Question Paper, it says: "Is the December of Agriculture still delivering ploughing and dipping facilities".  I do not know who the "December" of Agriculture is, but I know Agriculture is on the march.

In reply to the questions, Mr Deputy Speaker:

Yes.  The Department is still continuing with ploughing services at irrigation schemes where plots are half a hectare to one hectare in size.

With regard to dipping services, the Department still provides this service.

a.	There are 15 tractor drivers involved in the operation of the 15 tractors used for ploughing on irrigation schemes, regarding dipping there are 445 Animal Health Assistants (or Farm Aids) who actively assist with dipping.  There are a further 77 Animal Health Technicians and 2 Auxiliary Officers who monitor the dipping programmes and the Animal Health Assistants.

b.	612 staff were employed and 445 staff members are still employed in these sectors.

c.	The Department has a total of 148 tractors.  Of this 52 are used for engineering and soil conservation works, 46 are utilised for research on Government Research Farms and the rest (50) are used on irrigation and for general agricultural work within the rural areas.  Of the 50, 15 are used to plough on irrigation schemes, whilst the rest (35) are used for general agricultural work.  The general agricultural work includes the initial ploughing of newly established community gardens, ploughing, discing etc. of departmental demonstration plots, carting equipment, and for training in extension with regard to mechanisation.

d.	Yes.  This is a possibility that will be considered.

e.	Yes.

	PLOUGHING:
	The Department, in the long term, wants to privatise all ploughing services by way of establishing mechanisation centres.  These centres will belong to co-operatives and companies established by private entrepreneurs.  A proposal has been made to the Portfolio Committee and Cabinet in this regard.  Further consultation will ensue.

	DIPPING:
	A proposal has been made to phase out this service, which will be replaced by a user-payment system.  Negotiations on the proposal are under way with the various relevant stakeholders.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Mr Edwards?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Arising from the Minister's answer, has the Minister considered that the dipping programme is effective at present, because there has been talk that tick-born diseases are on the increase in our Province and Agriculture is very worried about it.  Can the Minister make a comment on that?

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  It has not been brought to my attention that the disease is on the increase, but I will talk to the hon member and see if we can investigate this matter.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Minister.  

QUESTION NO 149

MR J C N WAUGH:  Asks the Premier:

1.	Was the appointment of a Consultant for the Youth made by the Tender Board, if not, why not?

	a.	What the brief for the consultant is, and for what term was the consultant appointed?

	b.	Has the term been extended, and if so, what period?

	c.	When will the existing term expire, and what amount of money has been spent to date on the consultant?  What amount budgeted for this financial year is still to be spent on a consultant?

THE PREMIER:

1.	In terms of Section 4 of the National Youth Commission Act, 1996 (Act 19 of 1996), the President, on the advice of the Ad Hoc Joint Committee of Parliament on the Youth Commission, has formally appointed persons as members of the Youth Commission with effect 1 July 1996 for a period of five (5) years.

	Miss H (Pinky) Kunene was nominated by the Provincial Premier as part time member representing KwaZulu-Natal on the National Youth Commission.

	Pending the finalisation of the Provincial Youth Policy, the Premier approved the appointment of Ms Kunene as a Consultant on Youth Affairs for a period of six months as from 1 October 1996, or until the appointment of Youth Commissioners for the Province, whichever is the earlier date.

2.	The brief for the consultant is:

	-	work towards youth development in KwaZulu-Natal.
	-	research work and the provision of information on youth matters.
	-	the production of documents, reports and the like.
	-	the preparation of speeches on youth matters.

	Pending the finalisation of the Provincial Youth Policy, the consultant was appointed from 1 October 1996 for a period of six months, or until the appointment of Youth Commissioner for the Province, whichever is the earlier date.

3.	Yes, the periods are as follows:

	1 October 1996	-	31 March 1997
	1 April 1997	-	30 September 1997
	1 October 1997	-	31 March 1998
	1 April 1998	-	31 March 1999

4.	The existing term will expire as soon as Youth Commissioners for the Province are appointed.

	Amount of money spent to date:

	1/10/96 - 31/3/97  
		= 6 X R10 956,50 per month	=  R 63 739,00
	1/04/97 - 30/9/97  
		= 6 X R10 956,50 per month	=  R 63 739,00
	1/10/97 - 31/3/98  
		= 6 X R10 956,50 per month	=  R 63 739,00
	1/04/98 - 31/10/98 
		= 7 X R10 956,50 per month	=  R 76 695,50
	TOTAL	R273 912,50

	Amount budgeted for this financial year still to be spent on consultation:

	1/11/98 to 31/3/98 = 5 X R10 956,50	=  R 54 782,50

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  That then takes us to question No 150 to be replied to by the Minister of Education. 

QUESTION NO 150

MR R MORAR:  Asks the Minister of Education:

1.	Is consideration being given to give relief of payment of school fees to some parents?

2.	If so, what the criteria of relief and what consultation was held with governing bodies in respect of these criteria?

3.	If relief is given, who will be meeting the short fall at the different schools?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

1.	Not by the Department of Education and Culture.  Relief is given at school level.

2.	The criteria have been determined by the National Minister of Education in the Government Gazette No. 19347 of 12 October 1998.

3.	Relief is given at school level.

If relief is given will we be meeting the shortfall at the different schools?  Relief is obtained through the criteria that I have referred to above, through the criteria drawn up by the National Government and published in Government Gazette No 19347 of 12 October 1998.

QUESTION NO 151

MR G HAYGARTH:  Asks the Minister of Local Government:

1.	In respect of Project Viability how many TLC's in KwaZulu-Natal participate?

2.	What steps is the Minister taking to encourage participation by recalcitrant TLC's?

3.	What reasons are given by non-participating TLC's and are any of the reasons due to capacity problems of the TLC?

4.	In respect of KwaZulu-Natal authorities, how much debt is outstanding in respect of:

	(a)	service charges, and
	(b)	rates?

5.	What action is the Minister taking in respect of TLC's failing to take action against debtors?  And if necessary, has the Minister considered the use of Judge Willem Heath particularly, in respect of his successes in the Eastern Cape?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):

1.	All seventy-five (75) municipalities.

2.	No steps have been taken because all municipalities are participating.

3.	Not applicable.

4.	The questionnaire compiled for Project Viability does not differentiate between the different types of debtors.  The amount outstanding in respect of all forms of debtors for 52 municipalities out of 75 is R106 383 724.  Information from the remaining municipalities is still awaited.

	(1)	Once Project Viability identifies outstanding debts as a problem area, the MEC issues appropriate instructions after a management audit has been conducted.

	(2)	No.  Being recognised as a separate sphere of government, Councils decide on debt collection issues independently.

QUESTION NO 152

MR G HAYGARTH:  Asks the Minister of Local Government:

1.	In respect of Umkomaas/Umkomazi TLC how many investigations by competent persons into the TLC affairs since 1 January 1996 has the Minister instituted and what were the costs thereof?

2.	What were the terms of reference of each investigation in summarised form?

3.	What were the basic conclusions (summarised in respect of each investigation)?

4.	In respect of any recommendations submitted which were not carried out by the TLC, what action has the Minister taken thereon and, if not, why not?

5.	Was consideration given at any time to the rationalisation of water tariffs in a just and equitable manner and if not, why not?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):

1.	One investigation was instituted by this Department's Training Component during November 1997.

2.	To identify training needs.

3.	Specific recommendations were made to rectify identified shortcomings, e.g. a team-building and a change management exercise was launched to; improve the amalgamation of previously separate entities; prepare new job descriptions; define the role and functions of the councillors vis-a-vis the staff; improve the personnel function; and review organisation structures.

4.	In terms of the Constitution the role of the Minister and the Provincial Government is defined as and limited to "monitoring and support".

	The action the Minister has taken includes several meetings between himself and the Council, which caused the council to take a number of strategic decisions including the acceptance of a financial business plan.  The Minister also placed the services of his special consultant, Prof De Clercq, at the disposal of the municipality.

5.	Yes, the rationalisation of water tariffs is, however, considered to be the responsibility of the Council.  The Council has been advised to attend to this matter which, inter alia, involves extensive community participation and negotiation.

QUESTION NO 153

MR R MORAR:  Asks the Minister of Education:

1.	Does the Minister and his Department acknowledge the act that pupils and teachers are from different cultures and religions, and observe different days as religious holidays?

2.	If so, would his Department consider approving these days as holidays, and must the days lost be made up?

3.	Would the Minister make a statement in this regard?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):

1.	Yes.

2.	No.  Public Holidays are determined at national level and provinces have no power to approve other days as public holidays.

3.	All provincial education departments follow a system whereby requests are required by a school to observe a particular school day as a religious holiday and the school needs to indicate the day that will be a replacement for the school day.

I have made a number of statements.  I have indicated that since we do not have the power to determine holidays, we have laid down a policy whereby schools can apply and indicate to us that they want to observe a religious day on a particular day.  Our policy allows them to observe that religious day.  

They have to indicate to us how they will make up for that day, because the number of school days in a year are indicated and they are earmarked.  They have been stipulated and every school should observe that number of school days.  The best we can do is to allow schools to observe the religious holidays and then make up for those days.  

We do not want schools to simply close, because not all schools will observe these days.  Therefore, the schools that observe these days should indicate to us so that we know.  

It has been argued that people should just stay away and do as they like.  We do not want to force them not to observe those days, but we are requesting them to indicate to us that they are going to observe a specific day and indicate to us how they are going to make up for that.  We want to deal with this matter as best we can. 

MR R MORAR:  Mr Speaker, I rise in connection with the answer the hon Minister has just given and I would like to ask the hon Minister a question.  Is the hon Minister allowed to use his discretion to consider the plight of the Indian Community of this Province, who are merely practising their culture and religion, without them having to make up these lost days?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  I do not understand what the hon member is talking about.  Nobody wants to put any cultural group under any pressure.  We are willing to allow people to practise their cultures, we have not stopped them from doing that.  There are a stipulated number of days per year. If there are 192 years per year, we cannot allow schools to take any number of days they wish to take.  There can be no such ruling.  All we are saying is that if you have an engagement, a serious matter, like a religious holiday, take it and make up for that day.  We cannot have some schools having 200 days and other schools having 180 days.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR R MORAR:  Mr Speaker, I would just like to follow up on that.  I realise that the word "plight" is a very simple word.  Anybody can understand that but we are in the process of talking about respecting one's religion, culture and language in this Province.  Yes, it is good that we allow schools to close for the day.  We are not talking about 200 days, we are talking about ...

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can the hon member do this.  In terms of the Rule, the hon member is allowed questions and follow-up questions, but not to debate statements.  I am concerned that the hon member has now started to debate the matter rather than to ask a question.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR R MORAR:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, my question was very, very simple.  I asked very simply, is the hon Minister allowed to use his discretion in order to close these schools without having to make up.  Four days in a year is not much to ask.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Minister?

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  The simple answer to the hon member is that no, I cannot give four days to a school.  It is very difficult.  It is not within my powers to give holidays.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, in the light of the answer given by the hon Minister, it is correct that public holidays are a national competency.  Is the Minister, in the light of the difficulties which he has mentioned in his answers, prepared to consider a provincial policy relating to a holiday, not to the closure of schools but to individuals on their main religious days, the Jewish, Eid to the Muslim community and Diwali.  Just a provincial guideline so that one can recognise it within the context of Dr Buthelezi's declared policy on Cultural Pluralism, which is the foundation of Inkatha's policy.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  If the hon member is talking about Dr Buthelezi's recognition of cultural pluralism, it is exactly on that basis that he requested that the 24 September be recognised as Heritage Day.  Within those constraints he made provision for cultural observation.  But of course we are aware that there are other religious holidays.  You are aware that even Ascension Day, which used to be a holiday, it is no longer a holiday.  There are Jewish holidays, but they are not official holidays.  We do everything in our power to observe, because we recognise cultural differences.

QUESTION NO 154

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Asks the Premier:

1.	Is the Premier aware of the fact that fences along many of the Province's roads, including the arterial between Durban and Pietermaritzburg, are being systematically stolen?

2.	Is the Premier aware of the fact that many tons of metals, including aluminium and copper, that is publicly owned, is being stolen almost on a daily basis?

3.	Is the Premier aware of the fact that a large amount of copper, precious aluminium and dozens of Victorian fireplaces have been stolen from the Colonial building in Pietermaritzburg, a declared national monument, despite 24 hour security provided at state expense?  Is he aware of the fact that damage to the building as a result of this theft and vandalism is estimated at between R2-3 million?

4.	Is the Premier aware of the fact that at least 10 antique cues have been stolen from Parliament in Pietermaritzburg, despite 24 hour security provided by the South African Police Services?

5.	Is the Premier aware of the fact that Agricultural products are being stolen from private farms on a daily basis and openly sold on the freeway between Durban and Pietermaritzburg?

In the light of our Government's declared policy of good governance, can the Premier make a statement on how KwaZulu-Natal can be effectively governed when public infrastructure and produce from private farms is stolen in vast quantities on a daily basis?

THE PREMIER:

1.	Provincial fencing along the roadside is stolen on a continuous basis.  The Department of Transport views this in a serious light and is currently liaising with the South African Police Services and the National Roads Agency in an effort to address this problem.  The Police Services are, amongst other things, consulting the local communities with the view to enlisting their support in combating this problem, while the National Roads Agency has been approached for funding to have our major routes fenced off.  Replacing fences is, however, severely hampered due to budget constraints.

2.	In addition to the Anti Fraud and Corruption Campaign being co-ordinated by my Department, the South African Police Services also do make periodic visits to scrap metal dealers to ensure that a good relationship exists between themselves and the dealers.  This ensures that scrap dealers inform the police immediately should suspect persons attempt to sell the metals in question to them.

3.	This case has been thoroughly investigated by the South African Police Services and the case docket is presently with the Senior Public Prosecutor.

	The investigating officer has reported that the building was occupied by the Natal Museum from November 1994 to February 1997, at which time it was handed over to the National Department of Public Works.  Most of the items presumed to be stolen were in fact either not there prior to November 1994 or were removed by the Museum staff when they vacated the building in February 1997.  The Museum had removed these items as they had installed them upon occupation of the building.  A list of these items is available.  The Museum was also in a position to produce a list of items that were already missing from the building prior to their occupation in November 1994.  In spite of these explanations from the Museum it would nevertheless appear that some pilfering and theft did indeed take place.  For this reason the matter has been handed over to the Senior Public Prosecutor.

	The hon Mr Konigkramer is welcome to obtain a detailed copy of the South African Police Services report from me if he so wishes.
4.	This case (Pietermaritzburg CASE 1038/10/98) is currently under investigation. 

	PIETERMARITZBURG CASE 396/10/98

	THEFT - COLONIAL BUILDING

	REPORT BY INVESTIGATING OFFICER - CAPTAIN P MOODLEY

After a thorough investigation into the alleged theft of various items from the Colonial Building, the following has come to light:

The building was occupied by the Natal Museum from November 1994 to February 1997.  Most of the items presumed to be stolen were in fact either not there prior to November 1994 or were removed by the Museum staff when they vacated the building in February 1997.

The following items were removed by the Museum staff:-

-	LOCKS FROM EACH OFFICE DOOR OCCUPIED BY THE MUSEUM STAFF
-	STAINLESS STEEL SINKS
-	FIRE EXTINGUISHERS
-	INTERNAL SECURITY GATES
-	AIR CONDITIONED UNITS
-	EXTRACTOR FANS
-	DARK ROOM LIGHTS
-	FLUORESCENT LIGHTS WITH COMPLETE FITTINGS
-	STAINLESS STEEL WASH TROUGH
-	WOODEN SHELVES AND PLANKS.

The Museum had removed these items as they claim to have installed such, upon occupation of the building.

According to the Chief Exhibition Officer of the Museum, Mr Stan Bright, the following items were already missing/removed from the building prior to their occupation in November 1994:-

-	THERE WAS NO ALARM SYSTEM
-	FIRE PLACES WERE ALREADY MISSING (3)
-	SOME ALUMINIUM STRIPS ON THE STAIRS ALREADY MISSING
-	THE COURTYARD HAD SOME DOWNPIPES WHICH WERE MISSING AND BROKEN
-	THE ROOF ON THE TOP FLOOR WAS COMPLETELY COLLAPSED IN CERTAIN AREAS
-	THE ROOF AND WALLS WERE BADLY WATER DAMAGED
-	THERE WAS NO CO2 EQUIPMENT MOUNTED ON THE WALL.  IT WAS ALREADY REMOVED.

The above cannot be confirmed or disputed by the Public Works Department.  Mr Rodrigues of P W D visited the building during October 1997 and noticed that the building was in a total disrepair and the following items missing:-

-	CO2 PLANTS
-	COPPER SHEETINGS TO FLAT ROOF
-	GUTTER DOWN PIPES AND LEAD FLASHINGS
-	FIRE PLACES
-	TIMBER STAIR TREADS IN LEAD.

NO CRIMINAL CASE WAS REGISTERED.

Mr Stan Bright inspected the building on 1998-10-26, together with Tony Doull, and reported that according to his observations, only the following items were missing since the Museum vacated the building:-

-	ONE COMPLETE FIRE PLACE
-	FURTHER ALUMINIUM STRIPS REMOVED FROM THE STAIRS
-	LEAD REMOVED FROM 4 TOILETS (AS POINTED OUT BY MR TONY DOULL)

The security guards employed to guard the building allege to have seen a black male working in this building after the Museum had vacated it.

This was over two weekends.  The exact dates they cannot recollect.  This black male claimed to be employed by the Museum to clean the building and was in possession of keys.  After "CLEANING" he was observed pushing a trolley and leaving the building.  Whether he was involved in the actual theft cannot be determined at this stage.

During the investigation, the following aspects also surfaced.  No official handing over of keys took place between the Natal Museum and P W D, and as such no inspection was conducted.  It was also established that all Museum personnel were in possession of keys to the Colonial Building.  Even after they had vacated the building.  No keys were ever collected.

The time wasted in reporting this offence has resulted in all persons being interviewed having difficulty in remembering actual dates, etc., and this has to a certain extent, seriously hampered this investigation.

It is obvious that pilfering of the copper sheets and lead as well as the aluminium stair cappings had occurred, but in my opinion this had occurred over a period of time.

On conclusion of the investigation the case docket will be referred to the Senior Public Prosecutor for his decision.

CAPT P MOODLEY

5.	The theft of agricultural products from farms, which are sold along the roadside, cannot be tolerated.  I have therefore asked various departments to provide me with explanations as to what they are doing to combat this problem.  Their explanations are as follow:

	1.	South African Police Services
		Investigations have revealed the following:

		a)	That the product affected by theft is mostly sugar cane.
		b)	The theft is mostly perpetrated by children and in some cases by syndicates.
		c)	That the incidence of these thefts are spread throughout the Province.
		d)	That arrests are being made but cases are being withdrawn by the prosecution authorities based on the following reasons:

			(i)	That the perpetrators are too young.
			(ii)	That in the majority of cases the perpetrators are merely found in possession rather than caught in the act of stealing and the value of such sugar cane found in their possession is negligible.
			(iii)	It is difficult to prove theft once the perpetrators move out of the field.

		e.	In order to address this problem the following measures have been put in place:

			(i)	Continuous identification of the affected areas.
			(ii)	Patrols are being intensified in the affected areas.
			(iii)	Consultation is on the way with neighbouring communities in order to enlist their support.
			(iv)	The National Roads Agency has been approached through the Roads Traffic Inspectorate to have our major routes fenced in.  This is a major market place where a large quantity of sugar cane is sold.
			(v)	Farmers are being encouraged to involve farm workers in activities pertaining to rural safety.
			(vi)	Preparations are under way to launch a joint operation between members of the South African Police Services (Hammarsdale) and the members of the Roads Traffic Inspectorate with the intention to nip this problem in the bud.
			(vii)	The Office of the Attorney-General is looking into the theft of farm products particularly of sugar cane, and once they have completed their investigation a decision will be taken.

	2.	Department of Transport
		The agricultural produce being sold on the highway also poses a considerable safety risk due to vehicles stopping and pedestrian activity on the highway.  The Department of Transport has approached the National Roads Agency to erect fencing and "dazzle screens" on the centre median to dissuade this practice.  Furthermore, the Road Traffic Inspectorate has informed the public, by way of a news release, that stopping to purchase goods is liable for prosecution.  This Department will be increasing its information and enforcement campaign in respect of these offenses.

	3.	Department of Agriculture
		This Department is monitoring the situation and is in constant liaison with the relevant law enforcement agencies in an effort to curb the problem.

Mr Speaker, the hon member has requested me to make a statement in regard to this matter.  In our fight against fraud and corruption in the Provincial Government, we have set up the Toll Free Hotline to enable anyone to report suspected government fraud and corruption.  More than 100 000 calls have been received on the Hotline and, although the vast majority of these were crank calls, 300 cases were reported to departments for further investigation whilst more than 100 resulted in dockets being opened immediately by the South African Police Services.  In the process 394 people, (both from the public and private sectors) were found guilty of government fraud, and there were only 3 acquittals.  Sentences ranged from 18 months to 8 years imprisonment.

Mr Speaker, it is not only Government that has a responsibility to help in the fight against the theft and corruption that is eating at the core of our society, it is also every private citizen's responsibility to assist in this fight.  I appeal to everyone - play a role in cleaning up our Province and help put money back into the communities where it is needed most.

QUESTION NO 155

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Asks the Minister of Transport:

1.	What was the cost of upgrading District Road 1278 in the Mnweli Valley?

2.	What integrated Environmental Management (EIM) procedures were followed prior to the upgrading of District Road 1278?

3.	Was an EIA relating to the construction of the Road carried out?  If so, can this be made available for inspection?

4.	Did the Department do a cost-benefit analysis before the upgrading was carried out?

5.	Has the Department begun to extend District Road 1278 beyond the Tonyelana River?  If so, what EIM procedures have been followed?

6.	Has any scoping been done to identify possible alternative routes?

7.	Has provision been made to maintain District Road 1278, if so, what is the amount?

8.	Is the Minister aware of the dangers of serious soil erosion in the Mnweli valley as a result of the construction of the road?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):

1.	D1278 is in the Sundays River Valley and was upgraded in the 1996/1997 financial year.

	D1376 and D1259 are in the Mnweni River Valley and were upgraded in the 1997/1998 financial year at a cost of R1,026,343 for 15 km of road. i.e. R68,422.86 per km.

2.	No additional Environmental Management (EIM) procedures were followed other than normal Departmental Betterment and re-gravelling in accordance with Departmental policy, as this was the upgrading of an existing Provincial gravel district road.

3.	No EIA relating to the construction of the Road was carried out.

4.	No accurate Cost - benefit analysis was undertaken as it was the upgrading of an existing Provincial gravel road which was rated No. 2 priority in 1997 for the Bergville Rural Road Transport Forum.

5.	No formal construction on D1259 beyond the Thonyelana River has begun.  The EIM report for that part of the Drakensberg is currently being consulted before the Communities request to extend this road a further 5 km beyond the Thonyelana river and over the Mnweni river to a school is undertaken.

6.	The extension of D1259 on the existing traditional alignment has been investigated but any alternative route would increase the number of bridges required, and thus the costs and any alternative route is not where the local community live and wish the road to be upgraded to serve them.

7.	District Road 1259 and DR1278 are part of the Provincial Gravel road network which currently is funded for maintenance at about R2000/km/year.  D1259 is 15km long  R30 000/year.

8.	The whole of the Estcourt Region including the Mnweni Valley is subject to serious soil erosion being part of the Estcourt Series Geological formation, and because of this fact, care is always taken to ensure as much protection as possible is given to drainage protection in the road upgrading process.

	In the case of D1259 chemical earthwork stabilisers were used to increase road foundation compaction to minimise erosion, before the gravel was laid.

	Drainage protection on pipe culverts and damage repairs are currently being undertaken to fix some damage caused this wet season.

	Up to R80 000 may be needed to rectify the damage caused by current heavy storms being experienced in this part of the Drakensberg.

	

	SEE MAPS ON PAGES 383 AND 384





THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  That takes us now to the new questions for oral reply.  There is only one question for oral reply.  That is question No 156, to be replied to by the Minister of Housing.

QUESTION NO 156

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Minister of Housing:

1.	Whether he is satisfied that there are mechanisms in place to ensure residents on Ingonyama Trust land have equal and expeditious access to the Government Housing Subsidy Scheme.

2.	If so, could the Minister explain how such mechanisms deal with the ownership requirements of the subsidy scheme.

3.	Whether he will make a full statement on this matter?

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):

1.	All subsidy instruments are available to all the residents in the Province.  On Ingonyama Trust Land two subsidy instruments have been designed to specifically cater for rural areas and communal land ownership namely:

	a)	the institutional subsidy instrument which essentially caters for rental stock with option to buy at the later stage, and

	b)	the rural subsidy instrument which has been designed, as the word indicates for rural communities.

2.	The Institutional subsidy's mechanism provides for the creation of institutions which will own the land and houses.  These houses can be rented with an option to purchase at a later date either in terms of the Sectional Title Act or individual ownership.

	The Rural Subsidy mechanism is recognising the permission to occupy (P.T.O. system) as an acceptable form of tenure.

	All other subsidy instruments grant individual tenure.

3.	I am prepared to make a full statement on this matter in due course.  The institutional subsidy mechanism has been introduced more than a year ago and an announcement was made at the time.

	The rural housing subsidy mechanism has been finalised at a MINMEC meeting held on 30 November 1998.  As soon as the administrative procedures have been put in place, the National Minister will announce the subsidy scheme.  It will be left to the various MEC's to announce the implementation of the scheme in their provinces.

	Obviously this Province is keen to implement the scheme as soon as possible and I will make an announcement and release details of the scheme as soon as we are ready, taking into account funding constraints for the current financial year.

QUESTION NO 157

MR R M BURROWS:  Asks the Minister of Health:

1.	With regard to media reports of a departmental investigation into the death of Cathy Gordon whilst in the care of Town Hill hospital in March 1998, and after allegedly being given high doses of Lithium Carbonate (see Sunday Tribune 21 June 1998 attached):

	a.	What action, if any, has been taken by the Department against the staff found to have been "culpable", and

	b.	What steps have been taken to ensure that such a tragedy does not re-occur?





	SEE ARTICLE FROM SUNDAY TRIBUNE - 21 JUNE 1998

	ON PAGE 387


DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):

1.	Actions taken by the Department:

	(i)	An in depth investigation was carried out by the investigating officer and based on his report, a charge of misconduct was preferred against the involved department's official,

	(ii)	An enquiry is due to take place shortly, (approximately early December 1998) as the Investigating and the Presiding Officers have been appointed,

	(iii)	The matter has been reported to both the Interim National Medical and the Dental Council (INMDC) and that notwithstanding the outcome of their investigations, the matter is being pursued departmentally and Mrs Gordon has been appropriately informed.

2.	Only once a matter is reported to this office can the necessary process take place.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  That concludes our questions.  I am however prepared to listen to the Minister of Finance.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  I beg your pardon, I will observe your ruling, sir, but I was informed that question 158 was in fact for oral reply, on the back.  It is short and sweet and I will finish it quickly for you.  [LAUGHTER]  

QUESTION NO 158

MR W U NEL:  Asks the Minister of Finance:

1.	Whether the Tender Board have advertised for the provision of services to the Department of Welfare and Pensions with respect to the functions that Cash Paymaster Services currently perform, but whose contract has expired, and if so:

	a.	When was it advertised;
	b.	What is the closing date for applications;
	c.	Whether any company or group has been appointed, or when it is expected such tender will be awarded; and
	d.	For what period the new contract will be awarded?

2.	What the interim contractual arrangements for rendering these services are?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):

1.	The tender for the automation and privatisation of the paying out of pensions has not been advertised.  The closing date for the tender has not been determined.  Therefore no company or group has been appointed.  The draft tender documentation has been received by the Office of the Tender Board for approval by the Tender Board.  It is envisaged that the tender process will be finalised by 31 March 1999.  The new contract will be for a period of five (5) years.

2.	The present contract expired on 31 March 1998 but was extended up to 31 December 1998.  The Tender Board provided a new contract that would be in place by the beginning of 1999.  A further extension will be required to cover the period up to 31 March 1999.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Nel?

MR W U NEL:  Arising out of the hon Minister's reply.  Is he satisfied that the current contractors, in view of their precarious position, are still exercising their duties with due care and enthusiasm?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  I wish to ensure the hon member that between myself and the hon Minister in the line function department, his Department, Treasury and Finance, we are doing everything possible to see that that is in fact the case and so far we have no evidence to suggest the contrary.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  That now concludes our questions and answers for today.





